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Why does CCP hate armor tanking?

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Keno Skir
#101 - 2013-02-18 21:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Tippia wrote:
No they don't [Speak English], just like pretty much everywhere else. Welcome to the rest of the world. It's a much larger place than you think.


To be fair the majority of the planet speak english to some extent, welcome to history class Cool

OP : It's not supposed to be fair. If fairness was what we all wanted we'd all be flying the same ship with the same fitting. The point of having to choose either armor tank or shield tank is only valid if they have differences. Shield users don't as far as i'm aware have a module for changing their resists to the incoming damage like armor tankers do, and by your logic that's unfair and deserves whining about.

Seriously whats the point in any differences at all if people just knit-pick them until everyone's exactly the same.

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#102 - 2013-02-18 21:50:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


You know what works surprisingly well is a nano Mega...



2 years ahead of you on that one.


Hmmmm, probably not. But it is one of the few times I've been willing to mention it on the forums. These forums have an unhealthy obsession with boiling the game down to sieged dreads shooting each other.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Keno Skir
#103 - 2013-02-18 21:57:37 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
it is one of the few times I've been willing to mention it on the forums


Nano Mega's aren't a well kept secret. Neither are most other "personal" fits. Imho anyway Blink

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#104 - 2013-02-18 22:01:09 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
it is one of the few times I've been willing to mention it on the forums


Nano Mega's aren't a well kept secret. Neither are most other "personal" fits. Imho anyway Blink


It's much less about keeping a fit secret and much more about not being willing to have an argument over it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#105 - 2013-02-18 22:01:33 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
it is one of the few times I've been willing to mention it on the forums


Nano Mega's aren't a well kept secret. Neither are most other "personal" fits. Imho anyway Blink


I have a few I havent made public yetBlink
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#106 - 2013-02-18 22:12:45 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


It's much less about keeping a fit secret and much more about not being willing to have an argument over it.



I have reached the point where people just expect me in a mega no matter the fleet.
Oxandrolone
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2013-02-18 22:19:29 UTC
This is a brand new model, they will balance it over time. They probably dont want the same thing to happen when they introduced ASB's with 2 battleships killed 20 people with OP new modules.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#108 - 2013-02-18 22:21:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


It's much less about keeping a fit secret and much more about not being willing to have an argument over it.



I have reached the point where people just expect me in a mega no matter the fleet.


FC: "Hey guys, we're going out in an Inty + Bomber fleet".
Baltec: "Is a Mega ok?"
FC: *sighs* "No. For you? Yes."

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#109 - 2013-02-18 22:24:05 UTC
Hi,

Please avoid using personal attacks to make your point!

Thanks.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#110 - 2013-02-18 22:24:17 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


FC: "Hey guys, we're going out in an Inty + Bomber fleet".
Baltec: "Is a Mega ok?"
FC: *sighs* "No. For you? Yes."



I do have a frigate gang setupOops
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2013-02-18 22:28:58 UTC
I really don't get these AAR haters/whiners

Its easy to fit, you can still use it after your out of charges at 3/4 rep rate, and while pricey the ammo is small enough to leave you plenty of cap booster space in the cargo hold.

Personally I'm really looking forward to what it'll bring to the table

I lied :o
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#112 - 2013-02-18 22:52:57 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
Tippia wrote:
No they don't [Speak English], just like pretty much everywhere else. Welcome to the rest of the world. It's a much larger place than you think.


To be fair the majority of the planet speak english to some extent, welcome to history class Cool


English has about 1.8 billion speakers. The world has about 7 billion people. It's a plurality (Mandarin is second at ~1.4b), certainly, but nowhere near a majority.

Basically, you forgot China, Rural India, and Africa.

The world really is a big place. You don't hear about most of it on the news, either, so there's a tendency to forget about it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#113 - 2013-02-18 22:55:36 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

English has about 1.8 billion speakers. The world has about 7 billion people. It's a plurality (Mandarin is second at ~1.4b), certainly, but nowhere near a majority.

Basically, you forgot China, Rural India, and Africa.

The world really is a big place. You don't hear about most of it on the American news, either, so there's a tendency to forget about it.


Fixed
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#114 - 2013-02-18 23:03:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

English has about 1.8 billion speakers. The world has about 7 billion people. It's a plurality (Mandarin is second at ~1.4b), certainly, but nowhere near a majority.

Basically, you forgot China, Rural India, and Africa.

The world really is a big place. You don't hear about most of it on the American news, either, so there's a tendency to forget about it.


Fixed


Well, I've just outed myself, haven't I.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
zeberath
Welcome to Rokkenjima
#115 - 2013-02-18 23:51:14 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Why are you complaining ? You now have an AAR, AND the Reactive Armor Hardener, you are not limited by cargo space like for cap charges. Your AAR doesn't empty your capacitor in two cycles as it does with the ASB if you forget to turn it off when it runs out of ammo...

Armor tanking is receiving a lot of buffs tomorrow, stop complaining and enjoy the game.

You sound like babies : Never happy, always you want more, more, more...



thats it, they need to fight and experiment, and ffs don't focus in your tank vs their shields tanks, use the other 99% damn rules about combat. if the new AAR is underpowered it will be eventually fixed
Renzo Ruderi
Doomheim
#116 - 2013-02-18 23:59:08 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
OP is grossly misinformed. Nanite repair paste used to average around 17-19k, it will rebalance out around 22-24k each, once enough people in PI shift over to it. Which won't be many after the initial demand slouches. At this point, it is mostly speculative investors, and people who are all excited for a new module, but haven't bothered to check the stats on the AAR. (Is bad.)

Going with 24k p/u on nanite repair paste, that is 96k per boost, and 768k per full reload. A very large disparity between that, and OP's claims of 2.4mil to reload a med. Not to mention it's only 1.5mil to reload a large, even. Sure, it's a little bit more expensive than using an ASB, but hardly by any significant figure.


Basically this, since most of OP's initial argument was that cost was outlandishly high for the paste, as if CCP set the price themselves.
Mr Ignitious
Lifeline Industries
#117 - 2013-02-19 03:41:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Ignitious
So I've got some input to share. We've been looking for numbers instead of speculation so I'd like to share some of my findings for us to discuss. Currently I'm on team "AAR's are not comparable to ASB's, ASB's are vastly superior." To demonstrate this I have the following fittings to demonstrate this:

I've decided to use 2 ships with similar bonuses of their respective tanking choices: The astarte and the sleipnir.

The fits are as follows:

[Astarte, AAR Sim 525 Tanked]
Medium Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Medium Automated Carapace Restoration
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Warp Scrambler II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Since the AAR isn't eft yet I decided to mimic the amount that would be tanked by an AAR (we aren't comparing dps at this point so we can just pretend it has 2x mag stabs instead.) The amount tanked with the current sisi information with 1 AAR with this setup is 854 per 9 second cycle. The 2 meta mods added together equals 853 every 9 seconds, so it is equivalent.

If this is a projected fit, EFT throws out this as a 525 dps omnitank. It does in fact run a cap booster - it needs to in order to last over 1 min. It's using 4 low slots for tank mods, and 1 mid to run it. You would have extra grid since there wouldn't be 3 reps, however I'd personally still use ions cuz neutrons can't track to save their life ;)

The speed/agility is 1130 m/s and 11.4 align time, EHP 43.6k (I considered the rig changes and checked the speed with aux rig not fitted)


Now lets hold this up next to a Sleipnir and extrapolate on the differences:

[Sleipnir, Laci Green]
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Projectile Burst Aerator I

Ok so first thing: it's 1% over on CPU which could be offset by an implant or a faction something, drop the neut - what have you.

Onto to relevant statistics; the amount tanked is a whopping 1014. The amount repped per cycle is 1347 every 5 seconds. The resists of these 2 ships is quite comparable, sleipnir having a more even distribution.

EHP: 38k, 1434 m/s and 9.7 align.

AAR's will be able to hold up to 8 charges, ASB's can hold 7 cap 400s, or 9 navy cap 400's. We'll stick with 400's to stay with the cost effective argument (I don't care a HUGE bit about this, but I do find it a bit obnoxious).

With 8 cycles of an AAR you get 6824 raw hp, and takes 64 seconds to get the full benefit. With the ASB you get 9429 raw hp and only takes 35 seconds to get the full benefit. So not only do you get about 28% more hp from the ASB, you get have to live TWICE as long with an AAR to get the full repping power before the reload.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned much is that they have the same reload time of 1 minute, but it takes a full 30 additional seconds to get through the MAAR, and longer for the LAAR.

I want to be rational about comparing these 2 systems and make the point that is this: Currently shield seems the superior choice for 80% or more of ships, and the armor ships just aren't popular because they seem weak in comparison. The AAR is certainly a big help, especially in addition to the other upcoming changes. I however do not feel this is going to be enough to inspire me to change my shield gank brutix to an armor brutix (for example Blink )

Edit: For comparison reasons, I used All Level 5 skills, naturally.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#118 - 2013-02-19 07:12:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


FC: "Hey guys, we're going out in an Inty + Bomber fleet".
Baltec: "Is a Mega ok?"
FC: *sighs* "No. For you? Yes."



I do have a frigate gang setupOops


Is your frigate gang setup a mega with webs?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#119 - 2013-02-19 07:15:56 UTC
I've gotten to the point where I treat the ancillary repair modules as something you just sort of use up one full cycle of and measure the added HP from that as compared to shield extenders or plates.
I've found in EFT that like the ASB, an AAR is in some cases superior to the plate that I would otherwise fit in that location.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#120 - 2013-02-19 07:28:11 UTC
Now this is how you actually make a point:
Mr Ignitious wrote:
With 8 cycles of an AAR you get 6824 raw hp, and takes 64 seconds to get the full benefit. With the ASB you get 9429 raw hp and only takes 35 seconds to get the full benefit. So not only do you get about 28% more hp from the ASB, you get have to live TWICE as long with an AAR to get the full repping power before the reload.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned much is that they have the same reload time of 1 minute, but it takes a full 30 additional seconds to get through the MAAR, and longer for the LAAR.
I'll have to play around with it when I get the time, but at first sight, that does indeed seem a bit… off. I'm also thinking that the ability to double-fit the ASBs should make the difference even more pronounced as far as the whole unload/reload-cycle goes.

As James Amril-Kesh points out, the short unload time on the ASB means you can often treat it as a plate (short of getting alpha:d to bits), but the slower cycle on the AARs would mean that you can't as easily do the same there — you might be dead before it has had the chance of doing its job.