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Petition - Full ban of multi boxing programs which duplicate clicks.

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Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#241 - 2013-02-18 19:23:14 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
That is saying that the other 20 actions were then "botted". Since they were "duplicated" and "automated" as opposed to being done manually. If that's the stance you want to take, go for it.

The argument here is isboxer helping per click, not per second. That's the grey area CCP can't distinguish or enforce.

It is also the problem, hence the petition.

they weren't automated, thus not botted.


automation doesn't imply duplication, or vice-versa.

in this game's case tho, automation implies botting,

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Roeth Whitestar
Gemstone Mining
#242 - 2013-02-18 19:47:46 UTC
/supported

In Misneden right now there are 32 guys named "Replicator Exa01" - 40 and another guy named "Alphaclone psi 01" - 32, petitioned for all that is worth.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#243 - 2013-02-18 19:47:58 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
That is saying that the other 20 actions were then "botted". Since they were "duplicated" and "automated" as opposed to being done manually. If that's the stance you want to take, go for it.

The argument here is isboxer helping per click, not per second. That's the grey area CCP can't distinguish or enforce.

It is also the problem, hence the petition.

they weren't automated, thus not botted.

automation doesn't imply duplication, or vice-versa.

in this game's case tho, automation implies botting,

Distinguish or enforce allowing isboxer, huh.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kate stark
#244 - 2013-02-18 19:48:29 UTC
Roeth Whitestar wrote:
/supported

In Misneden right now there are 32 guys named "Replicator Exa01" - 40 and another guy named "Alphaclone psi 01" - 32, petitioned for all that is worth.


lack of imagination, now a legitimate reason to petition some one.

guess i'll have people petitioning me too, soon.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#245 - 2013-02-18 19:49:44 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Roeth Whitestar wrote:
In Misneden right now there are 32 guys named "Replicator Exa01" - 40 and another guy named "Alphaclone psi 01" - 32, petitioned for all that is worth.

lack of imagination, now a legitimate reason to petition some one.

guess i'll have people petitioning me too, soon.

Multiboxer is multiboxing.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Roeth Whitestar
Gemstone Mining
#246 - 2013-02-18 19:54:23 UTC
Just lame. I guess they'll start requesting reinforcement of the nodes to support their 'multi boxing' next.
Google Voices
Doomheim
#247 - 2013-02-18 19:55:01 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
no, you explained how the profit is not different.
whether one person owns all 20 accounts, or 20 people own the 20 accounts is irrelevant.

profit per account is the only thing that does mean anything. the reason people detest botting is it's because isk while you are physically not playing the game. that's not even remotely similar to multiboxing.

that is completely wrong. a miner mining with 20 accounts is earning profits at EXACTLY the same rate as 20 miners handling 20 accounts. because multiboxing does NOT make your cycles shorter or your yield higher. why do people think otherwise? honestly, please explain it to me. i don't understand why people think this.

do you even know what multiboxing is? the more i read of your post the less i think you do understand what it is...



Uh what? 1 miner controlling 20 accounts is going to make more isk than 20 miners each handling 1 account. PER CLICK even.

Not cycle.... but PER CLICK. That is where the argument comes from.


and that makes you generate more isk than 20 people controling 20 accounts... how?



The point is, it's one person....
One person cannot run 20 accounts efficiently at the same time with out assistance of third party software.

So, is this giving a single player an advantage over another single player......Sounds like it to me.


Read the EULA.


"3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

Seems clear to me....






"Fozzie could not comment on when this issue would be resolved and stated that “one day Veritas will come up to me and say ‘hey I fixed off-grid boosting’”, but he had no idea on a potential timeframe for this sort of miracle."
Roeth Whitestar
Gemstone Mining
#248 - 2013-02-18 19:55:33 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
[quote=Roeth Whitestar]/supported

lack of imagination, now a legitimate reason to petition some one.

guess i'll have people petitioning me too, soon.


You would follow under that description yes.
Kate stark
#249 - 2013-02-18 19:57:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Kate stark
Google Voices wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
no, you explained how the profit is not different.
whether one person owns all 20 accounts, or 20 people own the 20 accounts is irrelevant.

profit per account is the only thing that does mean anything. the reason people detest botting is it's because isk while you are physically not playing the game. that's not even remotely similar to multiboxing.

that is completely wrong. a miner mining with 20 accounts is earning profits at EXACTLY the same rate as 20 miners handling 20 accounts. because multiboxing does NOT make your cycles shorter or your yield higher. why do people think otherwise? honestly, please explain it to me. i don't understand why people think this.

do you even know what multiboxing is? the more i read of your post the less i think you do understand what it is...



Uh what? 1 miner controlling 20 accounts is going to make more isk than 20 miners each handling 1 account. PER CLICK even.

Not cycle.... but PER CLICK. That is where the argument comes from.


and that makes you generate more isk than 20 people controling 20 accounts... how?



The point is, it's one person....
One person cannot run 20 accounts efficiently at the same time with out assistance of third party software.

So, is this giving a single player an advantage over another single player......Sounds like it to me.


Read the EULA.


"3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

Seems clear to me....


you should read it, then answer my question. how is it [see my other posts for the context of "it"] generating more isk?

you still seem to be spewing random things instead of answering my question.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Kate stark
#250 - 2013-02-18 19:57:55 UTC
Roeth Whitestar wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
lack of imagination, now a legitimate reason to petition some one.

guess i'll have people petitioning me too, soon.


You would follow under that description yes.


hell, it took me 30 mins to come up with a name for my original character, even longer if iron man hadn't come on the telly. :(

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#251 - 2013-02-18 20:09:40 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Edited by: GM Lelouch on 23/04/2010 15:52:45
Hello there,

To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times.

Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping).

An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time!

Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA.

I hope this clears up this matter.

Best regards,
Senior GM Lelouch
EVE Online Customer Support



Good luck with your thread....

http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1291641&page=10#274


Bolded and underlined the part that makes the quoted post irrelevant.

Mr Epeen Cool
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#252 - 2013-02-18 20:21:30 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Edited by: GM Lelouch on 23/04/2010 15:52:45
Hello there,

To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times.

Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping).

An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time!

Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA.

I hope this clears up this matter.

Best regards,
Senior GM Lelouch
EVE Online Customer Support



Good luck with your thread....

http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1291641&page=10#274


Bolded and underlined the part that makes the quoted post irrelevant.

Mr EpeenCool



Bolded and underlined the part that makes the quoted post irrelevant.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#253 - 2013-02-18 20:26:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Google Voices wrote:


The point is, it's one person....
One person cannot run 20 accounts efficiently at the same time with out assistance of third party software.

So, is this giving a single player an advantage over another single player......Sounds like it to me.


Read the EULA.


"3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

Seems clear to me....


underline bolded the relevant parts.

multiboxing and duplication programs do not use any kind of stored rapid keystrokes nor other patterns of play that facilitate the acquisition of items at an accelerated rate compared with ordinary gameplay, since in the end, an account acquires minerals, in the case of mining, at a non-accelerated, non-facilitated rate of acquisition. so, at the eyes of CCP, it's not botting/macro'ing, nor an unfair, out-of-game-boundaries way of acquiring materials/isk.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Kate stark
#254 - 2013-02-18 20:28:50 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Google Voices wrote:


The point is, it's one person....
One person cannot run 20 accounts efficiently at the same time with out assistance of third party software.

So, is this giving a single player an advantage over another single player......Sounds like it to me.


Read the EULA.


"3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

Seems clear to me....


underline bolded the relevant parts.

multiboxing and duplication programs do not use any kind of stored rapid keystrokes nor other patterns of play that facilitate the acquisition of items at an accelerated rate compared with ordinary gameplay, since in the end, an account acquires minerals, in the case of mining, at a non-accelerated, non-facilitated rate of acquisition. so, at the eyes of CCP, it's not botting/macro'ing, nor an unfair, out-of-game-boundaries way of acquiring materials/isk.


this guy gets it!

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#255 - 2013-02-18 20:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Klymer
Kal Mindar wrote:
With the recent news of the Eve-uni multi box botting scandal, I think it is time to ban multi box programs.
Any program that allows 1 player to operate 30 characters, even just for movement, should not be allowed. Why are they allowed to hit 1 button and insta warp 30 characters to safety instead of dealing with the consequences of not being able to manually move them all in time to prevent a gank. A click is a click and any program that duplicates one is not following the spirit of action vs. consequence that this amazing game is based upon.


I, Kal Mindar, deem that multi boxing programs are a EULA breaking form of automation that undermines the integrity of this game.


Edit:
This is pretty sad. I have never seen such a lack of reading comprehension in my life. I started this thread to petition against ONE thing only and that was Duplication of clicks via a 3rd party program.
From there, you guys have talked about fleet warp being duplication? Really? An in game feature is 3rd party software?
Ban multi boxing? Are you kidding? No one said anything about one person being able to control multiple accounts.
OP is just mad/poor/idiot/etc..... I use 4 accounts to play this game, I multi box, I have plenty of $ thank you for isboxer or more accounts.

Give your collective heads a shake. This thread is about a program doing the work that a person should have to do in order to keep the playing field even. Eve central fine. Spreadsheets fine. Pyfa fine. None of these perform in game clicks for players. You have to understand clicks are what sets the tempo for how long it takes to do things. Automate any part of it and it undermines the level playing field that must be there. Anyway, some really great posts for both sides of the discussion. Just too bad so many people seem to have missed some simple points to keep this thread on topic. Hopefully CCP got some good player input and can use it to continue making this game freaking amazing.

I love you all.

Fly safe o7.

Kal


What got the E-Uni guy in trouble was tempo yes, updating 30 market orders per minute for 10-20 minutes at a time is obviously beyond "normal gameplay". The problem is, programs like ISBoxer don't do this and never have. The same thing you can do with ISBoxer you can do with tape and wooden dowels. Allowing everyone to use ISBoxer does level the playing field as it allows people who are to inept to use wooden dowels and tape, or who can't afford a few dozen extra keyboards, mice and computers, to use a single application that does what those things can do in the hands of a more technically inclined and creative individual.

edit: forgot to add that I added bold and underline
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#256 - 2013-02-18 21:37:37 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:


Bolded and underlined the part that makes the quoted post irrelevant.

Mr Epeen Cool


The date is irrelevant. It is the latest public information CCP has ever released. Yes I would like for a more recent announcement, but we can only go on what CCP gives us and this information is the most up to date we have.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#257 - 2013-02-18 21:54:51 UTC
Jason Xado wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


Bolded and underlined the part that makes the quoted post irrelevant.

Mr Epeen Cool


The date is irrelevant. It is the latest public information CCP has ever released. Yes I would like for a more recent announcement, but we can only go on what CCP gives us and this information is the most up to date we have.


Wrong.

Mr Epeen Cool
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#258 - 2013-02-18 22:02:41 UTC
This thread is not dead yet?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#259 - 2013-02-18 22:05:50 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
no, you explained how the profit is not different.
whether one person owns all 20 accounts, or 20 people own the 20 accounts is irrelevant.

profit per account is the only thing that does mean anything. the reason people detest botting is it's because isk while you are physically not playing the game. that's not even remotely similar to multiboxing.

that is completely wrong. a miner mining with 20 accounts is earning profits at EXACTLY the same rate as 20 miners handling 20 accounts. because multiboxing does NOT make your cycles shorter or your yield higher. why do people think otherwise? honestly, please explain it to me. i don't understand why people think this.

do you even know what multiboxing is? the more i read of your post the less i think you do understand what it is...



Uh what? 1 miner controlling 20 accounts is going to make more isk than 20 miners each handling 1 account. PER CLICK even.

Not cycle.... but PER CLICK. That is where the argument comes from.


and that makes you generate more isk than 20 people controling 20 accounts... how?



1 person netting the profits of 20 accounts mining? Imagine it takes 20 accounts to get $1000, and you compare splitting it between 20 people, or 1 person (both have equal costs yes I know) but it only costs say... $915 to run the plex for all 20 accounts combined. You have 20 shares of profit split equally versus those 20 shares given to 1 person.

The 1 person gets more isk at the end of the day. Simple math really.


except you still haven't answered my question. how has more isk been generated?

tip: it hasn't.



If you want to load a question with semantics, that's fine. We aren't talking about generating "MORE" income, like per cycle or anything. We are comparing a program automaticing and having an unfair influence over someone at their keyboard personally interacting with the game.

So yes, I did answer your question. I'm sorry it just wasn't what you wanted to hear, but it still shows how someone using a key/mouse broadcaster has a mechanical advantage over someone without.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#260 - 2013-02-18 22:09:17 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
That is saying that the other 20 actions were then "botted". Since they were "duplicated" and "automated" as opposed to being done manually. If that's the stance you want to take, go for it.

The argument here is isboxer helping per click, not per second. That's the grey area CCP can't distinguish or enforce.

It is also the problem, hence the petition.

they weren't automated, thus not botted.


automation doesn't imply duplication, or vice-versa.

in this game's case tho, automation implies botting,



Implies?

It's not an implication. You have an automated script run a cycle of commands over and over. ISBoxer and similiar command broadcasters do the same thing at one keypress at a time.

It's code written into a program to actually do something on your behalf. What's "implied" is the fact you want to use a common vernacular to someone excuse what it does.

And yes, duplicating does in fact imply automation. Do you know what a printer does by chance?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.