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What would happen if CCP eliminated SOV?

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-02-18 03:02:29 UTC
"curtailing the ability of players to join fights would increase fights"

what quality insights

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#42 - 2013-02-18 03:07:18 UTC
Andski wrote:
"curtailing the ability of players to join fights would increase fights"

what quality insights

It reminds me of the "If you increase the costs and penalties for initiating PVP in highsec, highsec PVP will be better."

Basically people want gameplay they don't like to be bad.
RichtPaul
Shadow Industries I
#43 - 2013-02-18 05:22:37 UTC  |  Edited by: RichtPaul
Three parties generally exist concerning Sovereignty changes.

Party 1: Don't touch it.

This party is either not affected, doesn't care, or likes the system already in place.

Party 2: It needs some tweaks, (major OR minor)

This party takes the position that sovereignty as it is needs changes. Either drastic, (removing structure grind, etc...), or minor, (whatever that would be).

Party 3: Destroy sovereignty,

I actually think this party is very minor, most people understand the fun in having your own markings on the space map and stuff!

Where do you stand?
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-02-18 13:00:55 UTC
There's certainly a lack of discussion and yet lots of complaints coming from null. It's like that one guy that everyone knows, he always complains about his life but never does anything to change it.

Don't ban me, bro!
BEPOHNKA
Ner Vod Fleet Systems
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2013-02-18 13:29:53 UTC
Just to make everyone happy, i'm with party 2 Big smile.


1) New star-gates / routes.
2) New timers 6 12 24 / Reduce shooting for markers base systems locations.
(small gangs to capture markers/I-hubs in hours. (Capture Feature)
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-02-18 13:47:29 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Pewty McPew wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Red Teufel wrote:
my guess ccp is just going to use dust to make it less of a structure grind. however everyone needs to understand back in the day it was only a few thousand players on at a single time. now we get 50k peeps online. there just isn't enough space.


I've traveled through null on more than a few occasions. Null is a desert with Oasis dotted about. Take of look at map statistics for pilots in system. Most of null is dark. There's a lot of space that isn't being utilized other than to have pos's extracting moon goo.


That's kinda why I posed the question. If Sov was removed, and anyone could go/build/claim space/extract goo without the need for Sov or the complication of Sov structures, would the null map remain unchanged? Would smaller alliances now have a chance to establish a foothold in a remote area or would everything collapse into one mega-alliance that covers all of null?

Without Sov you would actually have to defend your space in real-time without timers to protect you. If you haven't got the forces stationed in the system that's under attack, you could very well lose it all in a single battle. Seems bigger alliances would have a more difficult time keeping their borders expanding while still remaining protected. But that's just my opinion.



I've thought about this. The problem isn't Sov. It's force projection. The ability to jump large fleets to the distances that they do is what allows alliances to consolidate the vast areas that they do with little activity in the interim.

Jumping should be "special" case only usage, not the norm, with limitations not only from the ships and modules capable of doing it but, also from some system based criteria to support it. By placing more limitations on cynos and jump bridges you effectively make distances in space longer. You'll notice here I didn't say limitations on distance. Rather, I said limits on the ships capable of doing it, such as numbers they can jump. And I said limits on the space to support it: limit the number of cynos and jumps from an originating system. In effect, it would require more ships capable of it and jump bridges in a wider range of originating spaces. Effectively, it would force null to spread out more, utilize more of their space. They could still have the big fleet battles but, they've have to come from a greater number of originating systems. That would mean having a greater presence in all that empty space in null. And that would mean a greater indirect cost to maintain space, greater vulnerability to fracturing between alliances and a greater chance at conflict.....I suppose.


Yes! Ban cars, trains and airplanes! I'm sure there'll be more people travelling between cities!

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-02-18 13:54:17 UTC
Pewty McPew wrote:
Would would the effect be if Monday morning after server reset. Everyone logged into Eve and Sov was gone. Not just reset but totally eliminated. Sov holding structures just disappeared.



I don't know for others but in what I'm concerned I'd be more than happy if boring structure grinding is thrown by the window.

Wouldn't change the interest whatever alliance could have in specific system/constellation/region, just different tactics.
If this is done at some point thou, they should increase significantly stations HP and the possible number in each system.
This would be more fun for me, but it's just me.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-02-18 14:04:24 UTC
Pewty McPew wrote:
Would would the effect be if Monday morning after server reset. Everyone logged into Eve and Sov was gone. Not just reset but totally eliminated. Sov holding structures just disappeared.

Would the null alliances still attempt to hold vast regions of 0.0? Would they consolidate their powerbase to a smaller area that is easier to protect? Would there be a mass influx to lo and hi sec by former null dwellers who say "Aw the heck with it.".

I think players would continue to try and hold systems and to 'own' them.

Look at Wormhole space: With no sov mechanics players take over and establish themselves in womholes.

With no sov mechanics players in low sec often try to take over a 'pocket' of space and keep everyone else out.

With no sov mechanics players in NPC 0.0 space often take over systems or even regions and 'control' them.

With no sov mechanics players in Highsec try to take over regions or, apparently, all of Highsec.

I don't know if 0.0, as a whole, would become more fluid and active or if it would become even less active than it is now. I guess that would depend on how the system upgrades and stations got handled.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-02-18 14:22:12 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Pewty McPew wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Red Teufel wrote:
my guess ccp is just going to use dust to make it less of a structure grind. however everyone needs to understand back in the day it was only a few thousand players on at a single time. now we get 50k peeps online. there just isn't enough space.


I've traveled through null on more than a few occasions. Null is a desert with Oasis dotted about. Take of look at map statistics for pilots in system. Most of null is dark. There's a lot of space that isn't being utilized other than to have pos's extracting moon goo.


That's kinda why I posed the question. If Sov was removed, and anyone could go/build/claim space/extract goo without the need for Sov or the complication of Sov structures, would the null map remain unchanged? Would smaller alliances now have a chance to establish a foothold in a remote area or would everything collapse into one mega-alliance that covers all of null?

Without Sov you would actually have to defend your space in real-time without timers to protect you. If you haven't got the forces stationed in the system that's under attack, you could very well lose it all in a single battle. Seems bigger alliances would have a more difficult time keeping their borders expanding while still remaining protected. But that's just my opinion.



I've thought about this. The problem isn't Sov. It's force projection. The ability to jump large fleets to the distances that they do is what allows alliances to consolidate the vast areas that they do with little activity in the interim.

Jumping should be "special" case only usage, not the norm, with limitations not only from the ships and modules capable of doing it but, also from some system based criteria to support it. By placing more limitations on cynos and jump bridges you effectively make distances in space longer. You'll notice here I didn't say limitations on distance. Rather, I said limits on the ships capable of doing it, such as numbers they can jump. And I said limits on the space to support it: limit the number of cynos and jumps from an originating system. In effect, it would require more ships capable of it and jump bridges in a wider range of originating spaces. Effectively, it would force null to spread out more, utilize more of their space. They could still have the big fleet battles but, they've have to come from a greater number of originating systems. That would mean having a greater presence in all that empty space in null. And that would mean a greater indirect cost to maintain space, greater vulnerability to fracturing between alliances and a greater chance at conflict.....I suppose.


Yes! Ban cars, trains and airplanes! I'm sure there'll be more people travelling between cities!


Extremist summation is extreme. Seriously, I suggested no such thing. But you go ahead and summarize it like I did.

Don't ban me, bro!
Naes Mlahrend
Devil's Horsemen
#50 - 2013-02-18 14:31:33 UTC
The universe would collapse in on itself.
luZk
Fivrelde Corp
#51 - 2013-02-18 15:41:43 UTC
Andrey Wartooth wrote:
Orbital Dyke wrote:
Dalmont Delantee wrote:
I'm curious, is it the people who aren't in 0.0 complaining about SOV or the people in 0.0?

Probably the people not in 0.0.



Neither, its the people who care about the continued success of eve


So if it isn't people who live in null, nor is it people who don't live in null, then nobody is really asking this question.


Please for once ask yourself this question, would eve not be more fun if it had hundreds of alliances fighting each other in border to border conflicts as opposed to 1-2 mayor powerblocks in an infinite mexican standoff?

A standoff that's only broken off in a cooperative effort to slam whoever is challenging the status que in the head. This is why alliance to alliance standings should removed completely imo.

http://i.imgur.com/1dl4DM6.jpg
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#52 - 2013-02-18 19:09:24 UTC
Posting an yet another "NERF DAT BIG BLUE BLOB' thread.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#53 - 2013-02-18 19:32:51 UTC
Pewty McPew wrote:


Without Sov you would actually have to defend your space in real-time without timers to protect you. If you haven't got the forces stationed in the system that's under attack, you could very well lose it all in a single battle. Seems bigger alliances would have a more difficult time keeping their borders expanding while still remaining protected. But that's just my opinion.

I think it would be the other way around. A big alliance can easily have people in every time zone. A smaller one may not. So the big alliance can easily kill off a smaller one by attacking it when they are in their off time.

And without sov several other things get lost:

The right to build supercaps. If it was just freely given to everyone (no sov required) we just get more supercap proliferation.
The right to deploy cynojammers.
The ability to improve space.
An ISK sink is removed (sov bills).
Reduced fuel requirements for POSes.
People will still claim "sov", they will just argue over what it means, and if its a valid claim. It would be like playing football without goals. How do you keep score?

Am alternative is to base Sov on activity. You do not use a system, you lose it.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#54 - 2013-02-18 19:35:48 UTC
luZk wrote:
Andrey Wartooth wrote:
Orbital Dyke wrote:
Dalmont Delantee wrote:
I'm curious, is it the people who aren't in 0.0 complaining about SOV or the people in 0.0?

Probably the people not in 0.0.



Neither, its the people who care about the continued success of eve


So if it isn't people who live in null, nor is it people who don't live in null, then nobody is really asking this question.


Please for once ask yourself this question, would eve not be more fun if it had hundreds of alliances fighting each other in border to border conflicts as opposed to 1-2 mayor powerblocks in an infinite mexican standoff?

A standoff that's only broken off in a cooperative effort to slam whoever is challenging the status que in the head. This is why alliance to alliance standings should removed completely imo.

How do you remove one person agreeing with another to not shoot? They can still do that even if you remove the color tags from the game.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#55 - 2013-02-18 19:43:02 UTC
Fractal Muse wrote:
Pewty McPew wrote:
Would would the effect be if Monday morning after server reset. Everyone logged into Eve and Sov was gone. Not just reset but totally eliminated. Sov holding structures just disappeared.

Would the null alliances still attempt to hold vast regions of 0.0? Would they consolidate their powerbase to a smaller area that is easier to protect? Would there be a mass influx to lo and hi sec by former null dwellers who say "Aw the heck with it.".

I think players would continue to try and hold systems and to 'own' them.

Look at Wormhole space: With no sov mechanics players take over and establish themselves in womholes.

With no sov mechanics players in low sec often try to take over a 'pocket' of space and keep everyone else out.

With no sov mechanics players in NPC 0.0 space often take over systems or even regions and 'control' them.

With no sov mechanics players in Highsec try to take over regions or, apparently, all of Highsec.

I don't know if 0.0, as a whole, would become more fluid and active or if it would become even less active than it is now. I guess that would depend on how the system upgrades and stations got handled.

All those areas of space you mention already exist, and if you like that type of space you can go there. By removing sov from the rest of Null you are simply increasing the size of a type of space that already exists. You would also be totally removing another type of space. So nothing new is added, but something already in the game is lost.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Oxandrolone
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-02-18 22:24:57 UTC
They wont remove it, eve is a persistent universe.
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#57 - 2013-02-18 22:28:25 UTC
Some posts have been removed or edited.

Please try and be constructive in your arguments and note that certain patterns of posting may be considered as spamming, especially where it's to the detriment of the thread and tantamount to trolling.

Please stop it.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-02-18 22:46:22 UTC
"What if one day, everyone woke up, and CCP took away a core component of their game, one of the most fundamental elements that has kept the game successful for so many years, providing that fundamental function of control, the tangible barriers of power, the conflict driver that has been the source of so much war over the years."


What would happen? About the same thing as if Apple stopped putting battery cells into iPhones, and started making everyone buy disposable or rechargable AAA batteries.

This is just all kinds of stupid. Players would fight to protect what they have, there would be threadnaughts the likes of which eve has never seen, and mass un-subscribing in protest. CCP would be forced to rollback the servers to having the sov, and the only net effect would be a whole pile of very pissed off players.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#59 - 2013-02-18 22:51:21 UTC
Yeah but you must admit that it's pretty unfair that CCP won't just give me stuff that loads of players spent hundreds of combined years of effort gaining. Asking me to put the same effort in to getting it that they did is like saying I dont deserve it.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#60 - 2013-02-18 23:10:21 UTC
I will take up ninja looting/salvaging since Meta 4 gear may hit preT2 buff levels, except this time T2 will be even more expensive because it is better than meta 4, not worse.

Get used to what is termed as shitfit being the norm.