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Pirate faction PVE only BS? Fix the Rattlesnake!
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Guillaume Conquerant
#1 - 2013-02-18 04:16:46 UTC
The Rattlesnake is the only pirate BS that's used primarily for PVE, that is - there really is little PVP use for it and this needs to change. It really goes against the whole pirate faction theme (they're supposed to be the best PVP battleships). Sure, some of them can be used for PVE (shield Vindi), but that's not what they're meant for.

I've tried discussing with people the idea of tweaking the rsnake ... but most people seam to think that the platform needs an overhaul.

A couple of suggestions that have been kicked around:

1) 5 turrets w/ blaster optimal bonus replace missiles w/ velocity bonus
2) Allow to fit fighters (not sure how that would work size wise ... the might hurt docking ;)
3) Remote rep bonus (like capital grade), would need fitting/cap relief like the Tier3 BCs have with large turrets.
4) Less tank, more speed and split bonus for 30% damage and velocity bonus to missiles

Anyone else have any thoughts?
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#2 - 2013-02-18 04:25:09 UTC
I'd love to have at least one pirate missile battleship. Or something unique a-la Bhaalgorn, but it's a bit hard to invent anything new of that sort.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
kerradeph
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-02-18 04:45:12 UTC
the reason it's not used in PVP is because it's painfully expensive for a drone and missile user.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#4 - 2013-02-18 05:25:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Rattlesnakes are fine as it is. It costs half of machariel or bhaalgorn. Also perma X-L boosted, energy chained, neuting, MJD rattles might be very interesting in PvP as DPS/neut boats (there were 2 in AT X and they looked pretty good).

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2013-02-18 08:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
For about 500 to 600 million I can create an Dual-ASB monster that deals 1000 DPS and is almost invulnerable to neuting.

OR... I can dual tank it into the "ultimate" bait ship... close to 300k EHP and deals about 500 to 600 DPS.

Only reason I don't use it more often is because 500 million (while relatively cheap for a Faction Battleship) is not exactly something I can throw around without a second thought.

How did you Veterans start?
FoxTech
Fox Clan
#6 - 2013-02-18 08:17:23 UTC
Increase the targeting range of the ship or put it in the bonuses.

It already has the missile velocity for the range, it just needs the targeting range. Missile sniper ship.. stick enough drone links .... maybe 1 more high for 3 drone links + 4 missile... would be interesting...

I mean.. after all it is partly caldari technology after all, so hence the missile and long range...
gallante = drone

pirate = mix it all up :)
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-02-18 09:02:46 UTC
Pirate battleship are primarily used for PvE. Machariel atm is THE PvE-Battleship, Vindicator and Nightmare are Incrusion-farming machines.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-02-18 09:49:16 UTC
The problem is not the ship but that drones are horribly outdated and in dire need of an overhaul.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-02-18 10:59:29 UTC
Guillaume Conquerant wrote:

A couple of suggestions that have been kicked around:

1) 5 turrets w/ blaster optimal bonus replace missiles w/ velocity bonus



This absolutely cannot, nor will it happen. The ships are restricted by the fundamental combat style of their manufacturers. It's not like where a RACE has multiple types, it's like how even within racial ship lines, caldari tech 2 ships with missiles are made by one NPC corporation, well, designed, and with turrets, by another. Plus, I think this is a terrible idea. This does not fix the inherent problem, the disadvantage of cruise missiles and torpedos in pvp, it simply says "MISSILES ARE BAD! USE TURRETS INSTEAD" Very poorly thought out solution by the people that suggested it.

As for:

2) Allow to fit fighters (not sure how that would work size wise ... the might hurt docking ;)
Fighters are for capitals. Fighters are cruiser sized (iirc. Thus, this would defy so much logic)
3) Remote rep bonus (like capital grade), would need fitting/cap relief like the Tier3 BCs have with large turrets.
You've got to be kidding me, you want to create a single, ridiculously overpowered, faction logistics battleship?
4) Less tank, more speed and split bonus for 30% damage and velocity bonus to missiles
The whole point of the particular pirate faction that utilizes drones and missiles is tank over speed, because the missiles and drones have all the range they need.


Ship is just fine, it's the cruise missiles and torpedos ability to apply damage that is the problem, imo.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-02-18 11:01:37 UTC
I like the uniqueness of the rattlesnake in that it's the only one with the massive shield tank. The problem would appear to be, more than anything, that its shield tank works better with high passive regen than with high buffer. Perhaps if shield recharge effects were given a stacking penalty and an x-large shield extender were added to the game, the problem would alleviate itself and the rattlesnake would be used in pvp more without receiving any tweaks.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-02-18 12:32:09 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Rattlesnakes are fine as it is. It costs half of machariel or bhaalgorn. Also perma X-L boosted, energy chained, neuting, MJD rattles might be very interesting in PvP as DPS/neut boats (there were 2 in AT X and they looked pretty good).


Could use of some missile explosion bonus or explosion radius bonus. When you see how retraded Bombers are at shooting Torps, such a specific ship like Rattle could use one of those bonus

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-02-18 12:51:25 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
[Fighters are for capitals. Fighters are cruiser sized (iirc. Thus, this would defy so much logic)

Fighters are around the size of a Shuttle, most are actually smaller.
IMO all battleship drone ships should get the option to use fighters via a secondary drone bay that can only hold fighters, reason being is large drones are expected to be used on gallente cruisers and amarr battle cruisers. This creates a massive wall when it comes to options for drone ships as the progression continues to fighters which takes months to be able to sit in the ship that uses them, all the while there is no time to get used to fighters and learn the best tactics for them.
As far as DPS goes they should not get any kind of bonus to there damage which would put them at +25DPS before DDAs keeping the ships inline with there current DPS.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-02-18 13:27:25 UTC
Guillaume Conquerant wrote:
The Rattlesnake is the only pirate BS that's used primarily for PVE


*coughnightmarecough*

Dodixie > Hek
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-02-18 16:24:44 UTC
With drone damage mods and the torp GMP change, I don't think there's much wrong with the Rattlesnake now really. Apart from being an immobile BS, but it can't really help that.

Switching launchers to turrets is largely pointless, if there's a DPS problem then adding a launcher of a damage bonus is the way forward. Allowing the use of fighters is just stupid, they're too expensive and don't benefit from drone upgrades.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#15 - 2013-02-18 17:11:07 UTC
The problem is more the nature of PVP in Eve than the ship itself as such - most of the other pirate battleships fit the more common themes of skirmish or armor warfare. The snake makes a good shield brawler platform and in PVP involving close range shield setups it would do very well but thats not a common doctrine used in PVP.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#16 - 2013-02-18 17:24:18 UTC
Arronicus wrote:



Ship is just fine, it's the cruise missiles and torpedos ability to apply damage that is the problem, imo.




And actually holding anything to kill it. I had quite a few fights with mine (and one embarassing PVE fit loss when I didn't have the proper skills to fit/fly it) and in most cases where I didn't have other people with me to hold stuff down a large number of ships could pull range before dying.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#17 - 2013-02-18 17:30:28 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The problem is not the ship but that drones are horribly outdated and in dire need of an overhaul.

I really like weapons that can't do any damage because of their own movement!
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#18 - 2013-02-18 18:12:53 UTC
I still don't get why people complain so much about missiles in pvp, I find that torpedos on a proper ship, a raven, cns or rs can be really used for pvp if you know what you are doing, dual web and tp drones along with rigs, will make torps hit everything for close to full damage.

I think the problem is that missile users are often shield users, and they are not willing to sacrifice some of the uber tank for dps and damage application.

a CNS its a really nasty foe when pvp fitted, it will hit you for 1200 dps really damn effectively at close range, and will tank anything you toss at it, and it costs the same as a t1 battleship.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-02-19 03:17:37 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
[Fighters are for capitals. Fighters are cruiser sized (iirc. Thus, this would defy so much logic)

Fighters are around the size of a Shuttle, most are actually smaller.



Fighters have the same armor and shields as cruisers, the same signature resolution on their guns, as cruiser size weapons (125m), and have the same, or bigger signature radii than cruisers. 75m on a scythe, compared to 100m on an Einherji. Yes, the VOLUME is directly comparable to that of a shuttle, but the craft itself, shares nearly all other attributes with cruisers. Sure, ccp can say "Oh, the length and width of the hull is the size of a frigate", but if the propulsion system is cruiser sized, the weapons are cruiser sized, the speed is that of a cruiser with and without the mwd on, and the signature radius is that of a cruiser, it IS cruiser sized.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-02-19 03:21:37 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
[Fighters are for capitals. Fighters are cruiser sized (iirc. Thus, this would defy so much logic)

Fighters are around the size of a Shuttle, most are actually smaller.



Fighters have the same armor and shields as cruisers, the same signature resolution on their guns, as cruiser size weapons (125m), and have the same, or bigger signature radii than cruisers. 75m on a scythe, compared to 100m on an Einherji. Yes, the VOLUME is directly comparable to that of a shuttle, but the craft itself, shares nearly all other attributes with cruisers. Sure, ccp can say "Oh, the length and width of the hull is the size of a frigate", but if the propulsion system is cruiser sized, the weapons are cruiser sized, the speed is that of a cruiser with and without the mwd on, and the signature radius is that of a cruiser, it IS cruiser sized.

By that logic heavy drones and sentry drones are the size of cruisers also.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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