EVE General Discussion

You do just fine by yourself like here:







[Tippia voice] Which fortunately is the case, because Mackinaw does not provide safety through tank.

The subset of Mackinaw *proper fittings* provides *unprofitability* and not safety thorugh tank.

It's two very different things. Whereas a Skiff is impervious to all but concerted, heavy attacks, a Mack dies to Catalysts just fine, just not fine enough to let you farm them like they are PvE.




In your long history of crap fittings, that one is one of the most glamorous. Yeah, give up all tank to fit webbers so the one time you had to sneeze or take a pee you get popped by a loner who started laughing 30 minutes earlier when he scanned you.




No, I am the one claiming that even if this did not apply any more, you CANNOT, I repeat CANNOT repeat a mining ships PvE alike mass scale farming any more. Because now all the mining ships are great, it's not like before tiericide, when they all sucked the more or the less. Now, you nerf Mack, people switch to Retriever for negligible loss in efficiency and hold and you have to harden up and eat your hat.

CCP Ytterbium claimed responsibility for it in a devblog so yes he did do it, I linked it earlier in the thread and I'm not going to rehash it for someone who is deliberately trying to strawman/derail the thread into oblivion.

Missed a word there. Kind of an important one. And a Phrase. Kind of an important one too.

Words and Phrases: All of them Matter.



The Mackinaw is unprofitable to gank with 3 MLUs. In what way is that not safe from significant sources of risk?
Not-For-Profit ganking is not a significant source of Risk. (Last time I did ::math:: the risk of being ganked at the height of HAG worked out to about 500k ISK/hr assuming something like an average of 1000 miners mining in HS). The risk now is insignificant (as you pointed out, ganks have fallen like a stone).


If you have to pee, dock/POS/cloak up. Just like everyone else has to if they want to stay safe. Or give your friend (who's webbing you) fleet command.




As I have said before. Many times. I am perfectly fine with a result of people giving up things that matter (yield and cargo) to reduce their chance of loss (Skiff) or to reduce the loss they face (Retriever). I have no problem with that, and Never Have.

My problem is that they don't need to give up anything to use the Mack. Nothing at all. Compared to its equivalent pre-buff (the Cargo Hulk), it has More Cargo, a Higher Yield, and more than enough tank to be unprofitable to gank (thus it's immune to the industrialized ganking required to present miners with some actual risk).

Dont you just love a GOON crying because now he /they cant gank a miner in a cheap frig /dessie any more.But may have to use a BC .Why dont they just grow up,and realise the game isnt just for them .Its for thousands upon thoudands of players,each wanting to do different things in game.Ganking will never die in EVE unless they blue everyone,,but now they may have to put a bit of thought into it ,and risk.Strange how Goons are always saying high sec are risk adverse,but then the majority of high sec corps ect ,dont have ship replacement programes do they leaving the player to bear the cost /risk rather than his corp lol.Unlike Goonwaffe ,so whos risk adverse i wonder in the end.The lone player or small corp,or the monalith thats become GSF and CFC ect..With there endless ship replacements .

Was the EHP buff given to barges/exhumers to
a) reduce suicide ganking, or
b) to give barges/exhumers more survivability in null as part of CCP's Master Plan to Make Null Minerals and Industry Relevant in Which Commerce Raiding is a Large Component.

In other words, is it correct to only think of the EHP buff in the context of high-sec suicide ganking?

Considering all the love an attention given to null, the forum whining, and what went on in that thread it's safe to say it was to directly remove suicide ganking from highsec.

Considering that EHP is largely irrelevant for a mining ship outside of HS, yes.

Rats are best dealt with via active tanking, players are best dealt with by not getting tackled.

Speaking of, Nullsec miners manage to stay at the keyboard when they mine in order to protect their 200m investment. I wonder what lead to HS miners feeling that they shouldn't need to stay at the keyboard when they mine in order to protect their 200m investment?

That's a train of thought I'm not willing to write off so yes I agree with you there that suicide ganking is potentially a symptom of a greater problem. There are always going to be people out there solely to ruin other people's day but like we've seen from the CSM minutes they aren't nearly as common as the forum whiners made them out to be. I think if CCP spent the time they spend currently combating a single play style on fixing problems in non-highsec areas it would make the game better and greatly alleviate the suicide ganking ~problem.~

fair enough i have always fitted my mining operations to be quite tanky and unprofitable to gank from the outset, I have never had combat ships watching over me though. I always had to rely on making myself a brick and just too difficult for any casual barge basher to worry about. I also run with a siege booster as well amplifying my already tanky fits. That said i havent mined much lately anyway if i mine i usually manage 2-3 weeks tops before i get bored of it and stop again lol

Skiff : Mack = Alchemy : Reactions.

Alchemy keeps reactions in check. Skiff is the T2 fallback ship in case Macks start getting killed.
Also, the flying characteristics make Skiff better for more hostile space.




No, that's safe from significant sources of farming. If you want to kill a Mack you can.
I see it happening every day, for the most different reasons, just not for the profitability any more.

Considering a CCP post stated ganking should not happen in those terms (that is, for making ISKs even off the bare hull) then not only you should expect this Mack behavior, but also that other T2 ships will be buffed (and they will) to make farming them not a business any more.

CCP are not stupid. They know that a well organized, huge corp WILL farm the others. In other games, farmed people (usually bads, but does not matter) tend to rapidly unsub and make the game fail. In EvE, since it's one of the few MMOs left still asking for a recurring sub, they are NOT going to let bads unsub to make you e-richer. Because like it or hate it, MMO means "massively multiplayer" and "massively" means "huge loads of people" and the majority are BAD (Sturgeon's Law) yet it's them who bring in the majority of the cash.

You knew this would be nerfed. Many years ago CCP nerfed an ancient corp farming people at the gates by implementing the current Concord. That day, the "I farm others for profit" people should have accepted it or quit EvE.




"I bought an AFK friendly ship with huge cargo so I can dock at every sneeze and will use one of the two mining slots to fit a cloak". Yeah it seems smart.
What's next? "Fit a MWD on the Mack". Oh wait, it's already been suggested.




And compared to post-buff Hulk it has less yield, less manouverability and tank than a skiff and more cost than a retriever.

The downsides are here, but - to repeat a post you did not understand and would have saved you pages and pages of posting:

"very simple First Law of the Miner:

"the mining ship with the largest ore hold is the king".

Second Law of the Miner:

"miners will forfeit earning > 20M per hour mining minerals while they'll be glad to AFK mine ice for 5M per hour".

Let me add the Third Law of the Miner:

"I will spend 200M to buy a ship with few percent bigger ore hold than a 30M one because it lets me AFK for 5 minutes longer".


CCP can't fix miners mentality. If stripped of all chances they WILL use a mining laser Iteron, because it got a large cargo hold. You have to forcibly kick every HS miner out of the game before they change.
And they won't change, because the terrible mining mechanic did not change.
4 hours of sitting somewhere silly, just to do what in most other games is achieved by hitting a rock 3 times. That's what creates AFK mining, not the miners.
Make mining a 30 seconds matter with an enforced designed scarcity of minerals and you'll see no AFK miner any more.