Intergalactic Summit

Oh, my mistake, it was Bloodbird that hadn't answered the question.

Easy to confuse one Angry Intaki for another, I suppose.

At no point have I insulted a person. I have insulted their beliefs.

It is my firm conviction that beliefs are ALWAYS valid targets for mockery, insult and scorn if they warrant it. It's hardly my fault that people get bent out of shape when I fail to show deference to their most favouritest faerie tale.



Might have something to do with all the Amarrians who've threatened me with it.



Even if the Kingdom of Heaven exists (we're getting back into the well-trodden territory of that pesky "burden of proof" thing again), then this answer once again renders Amarr a complete waste of time.

What you just described is what I have always thought is likely to happen anyway. You live, you die, the matrix of energy and matter that drives your body to behave in the way that we call your personality unravels, and You Are No More.

This not only doesn't sound so bad to me - after all, the thirteen and a half billion years prior to my conception were not in any way unpleasant - it sounds vastly preferable to existing for eternity.

Now, I intend to live for a good long time. The final death of my mind-state is something I plan on putting off for... I don't know, centuries at least. But like anyone, I'm capable of finding myself bored on a Thursday evening when I have nothing to do that I haven't done a hundred times before.

A hundred years sounds nice. A thousand years sounds like a ripe and excellent age... what about ten thousand? A hundred-thousand? A million? Ten million? A billion? Ten thousand million billion trillion? I'm pretty sure by that point the ennui would have set in, no matter how wonderful my moment-to-moment existence.

The human brain never evolved to cope with continuing to exist for those sorts of spans of time. How much would I forget and change across those inconceivable eons of time? I'd be like that old conundrum about the grandfather's rifle, with each of its component parts being replaced once it had worn out until finally you're left with a gun that contains none of its original component pieces but is nevertheless the same gun.

Even as an immortal my life plan involves dying some day. It could happen tomorrow if I suffer a clone malfunction, or it could happen in fifteen centuries' time when I decide that enough is enough.

Eternal life in bliss doesn't sound like bliss to me; It sounds like insomnia. Time would pile up, order of magnitude upon order of magnitude, until I had long outlived the full span of the universe that birthed me, from the instant of the big bang until the moment the last speck of matter finally decays. Such chasms of time would be insignificant next to the eternity you're describing.

From where I'm sitting, what you're proposing sounds terrifying, and to be avoided at all costs. The only way to make it bearable would be to change the nature of my consciousness beyond recognition, in which case Verin Hakatain hasn't entered the kingdom of heaven, just something that was inspired by him.

So the options are: cease to exist, be somehow transmuted into something radically different than what I am and exist forever, or exist forever, unchanged.

I have presented these options in descending order of desirability.

Incorrect. I merely described the reality of your situation. It's no more inherently insulting to describe you as a slave than it is to describe you as a capsuleer - it's simply what you are.

If you've taken offence at the description, then that's your problem, not my fault. I am not accountable for your capacity to be offended by simple statements of fact, nor for your capacity to deny reality. The strongest chains are the ones that the slave never notices that they are wearing.

In any case, you just admitted that slavery is a bad thing, is an undesirable state to be in, rather than the glorious "education in the ways of God" that has previously been contended. which is it?

Mrs. Rella,

My mother was a slave Pilot, show some God Damn respect and stop presuming that every one of the Faithful is violent slaver.

I did not advocate the uplifting of the Minmatar people, please don't presume otherwise. I do not believe in slavery (the Scriputres have no mention of it, as I'm sure you've read them) though I understand the thought process behind it (and I still don't agree).The Matari people have nothing to gain from people who continue to spread hate through misunderstanding and will never reach their full potential with people advocating it.

My faith is my buisness, so I've always believed, I'm willing to share it with those who wish to learn. It might do you a bit of good to ask one of their views before assuming to know them.

Respectfully,

Simon Malkov Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Corporate HQ
Federal Administration Information Center
Office Complex 781, Tier V
Luminaire VII (Caldari Prime)

You would be astonished just how accurately you can judge a person off a few short comments they have made. You may think it rude, but it's been my experience in life that across much of New Eden the word "polite" is effectively interchangeable with the word "dishonest".

I believe in respecting people, not being polite to them. Which means that I believe in telling them the truth as I see it as opposed to lying to them. I know full well that this behaviour is broadly seen as blunt and terse at best (and downright arrogantly unpleasant at worst) but my objective is to communicate, not to make people like me. The people I'm most inclined to like myself will value these traits.

I can also respect a person through remaining silent, and in fact I very often do so. I just don't do it here in the IGS because the entire point is that this place is for discussion and openness. To enter a forum of public discourse and then remain silent because somebody else dislikes what you're saying is self-defeating.

If you don't like what I'm saying, don't listen to it. If you object to what I'm saying, counter me with a well-founded opposing argument.

But telling me that you think I'm being rude is just whining, pilot, and I do not respect whining.

Pilot Louvaki: With respect, the reason I am so very critical of Amarr is because it seems to me that I understand it rather better than the majority of its practitioners. I am not seeing it through the rose-tinted goggles worn by those who have adopted it and convinced themselves it is wonderful. It is not: it is abhorrent. My opinion that this is so is founded on having studied the religion in very great depth and made up my own mind, rather than allowing an "expert" to spoon-feed me the sanitized puppies and cake version.

Anybody seeking to "educate" me in Amarr is going to have an agenda, most usually that agenda will be to convert me. I will make my own decisions on the subject after conducting my own independent research. I assure you that I have made every effort to keep this research fair... And my conclusion is that Amarr is an appalling blight on the human species.

I could be wrong, but for goodness' sake stop sneering at me and telling me I don't understand. SHOW me that I don't, if I truly don't. Here an now, in public, for everyone to see. Or are you afraid to stand up for the things you believe?

Pilot Stitcher,

Respectfully sir, I am not sneering at you, I'm simply stating the fact in the manner you chose to address the topic. As always, your free to believe what you want, but I have no agenda other than clearing up misconceptions and meaningful conversation free of the overtly hostile skeptics and hate-mongers. I offer to speak to you privately about Amarr, not preach to you or convert you, conversion is something you do on your own free will and of your own recognition not something beaten into you by a sanctimonious priest. If you prefer it to be here, then so be it.

I've already correct you once on our religion. There is no 'hell' or 'damnation' in terms of divine punishment (post-mortem). I'm happy to answer any questions you ask, but so far you've had nothing to say but ramblings about how despicable you think our Faith is.

As you ask for me not to 'sneer' at you, I in turn ask for you not judge me or others based on the misdeeds of others who also share our faith.

So ask Pilot, and I will answer.

The opposite of salvation is damnation is it not?

There is not another word to properly fit the opposite of what the Faith attempts to achieve. You are either saved or damned, and in your case, weather that is good or bad is totally up to the person. I can't argue that you'd prefer non-existence to the rewards of heaven but its pointless to argue the if the use of the word fits the traditional definition in past cultures compared to its use among those of the Amarrian Faith. In this case being 'damned' is used to define the what those in the faith refer to those who do not know God. There is no greater damnation, torture or 'hell' (if you wish to use the ancient term) than not knowing the grace of God.

If you prefer to set the definition of 'Damnation' to mean eternal torture after death' then I'll simply refer to it as coinciding to the void. It's important to understand however, that to those of the faith, it is one and the same.



The Theology Council, the Ardishapur Family, the Kador, the Sani Sabik ext. are not given religious authority by the Scriptures to dictate their meaning to the rest of us. What you describe are social and political issues that fall within the Ammarian Empire based around interpretation and sequential abuse of faith, which is in turn mired in the corruption of the political process by politicians and priests who wish to spin the meaning to their advantage.

None shall stand higher than you save the Sefrim,
Who serve Me as others shall serve you,
For all things under Me serve one higher;
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.

As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21

Notice, the Scriptures do assign a role to each person and cast. This isn't so different as a great many cultures in the cluster, but nothing denies a person of improving his stature. In fact God encourages us to break free our chains to ascend to our greater potential through faith. A great many use this to justify the enslavement of the other races coupled with the following verse which provides, to some, the moral and religious foundation needed to consciously subjugate via force another person.

"Only through many hardships
Is a man stripped to his very foundations
And in such a state
Devoid of distractions
Is his soul free to soar
And in this
He is closest to God"
- The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5

This is however something I believe that is vastly misunderstood. Many believe that in order to bring the lost (those who do not know Amarr) to light is through breaking them down and rebuilding; I don’t believe that was the message however but the political advantages of spinning it that way are obvious. Hardship comes in many, many forms, and I don’t believe the wicked done by many a false Holder will be rewarded in the afterlife. A good Holder does not destroy his flock, they Sheppard them.



Does everyone not have their own interpretations of honor and duty? In the meaning and way of life? There will always be like-minded individuals who ban together in common idealistic brotherhood but there will never be blanket interpretation that covers all people and codes. Religion is no different. I do not claim to know all the fact, nor will I ever, but I can certainly set out to clear away the misconceptions held by the outside world that was planted by the people who abused and discredited our faith. I’m sure your not attempting to insinuate that I am so pig headed to believe that I do, because I’ll say right now I don’t; I do however believe I generally know more about my Faith than the people who are not of it.

And he won't. He'd rather just blindly sling insults than turn down his shades enough to see any actual truth.

For crying out loud pilot Louvaki, my argument this entire time has been primarily directed at Amarr the empire, not at whatever version of the Amarrian religion you personally adhere to. I don't give a bent frak what you believe, it's none of my business. A theocratic empire built around a religious doctrine of conversion-through-slavery on the other hand? That IS my business. It's everyone's business and by the Kariola's last flight that's a war I consider damn well worth fighting.

My question is directed at the people who DO condone slavery, and who DO view it as the necessary avenue to salvation. It will continue to remain thus directed, okay? Why? Read this thread's title.



Indeed. you however appear to be defining damnation as the absence of salvation, which is not the same thing at all. That's like correctly declaring that left and right are opposites, and then defining "left" as meaning "middle". None of which answer the question I keep asking: "Saved from what?" What does damnation constitute?



I know you're talking about souls here, but let's be clear on this: I very much doubt that such a thing as a soul exists. I've certainly seen no evidence of them. That being the case, I will do the intellectually honest thing and confine my opinions solely to those things I do have evidence for - namely my physical life and consciousness.

Anyway, what you described would be the state that I am already in at this precise moment, and I can detect nothing unbearably unpleasant about it. If this is the worst torture the universe has to offer then, frankly I'm unimpressed. Damnation would appear to be profoundly underwhelming.

Alternatively, If damnation constitutes ceasing to exist upon death, then damnation will not be unpleasant in any way because it won't be an experience at all. A deleted "soul" simply cannot experience anything of any description, any more than can a child who has yet to be conceived. Did you enjoy, dislike or otherwise experience anything at all prior to your birth? No, of course you didn't, you didn't exist. Persons that don't exist don't experience. Again, damnation fails to hold any terror.

The only scenario in which I could see any reason at all to wish to avoid damnation would be if it was a literal afterlife, and a horrible one. I could understand wanting to avoid that. I mean as far as I'm concerned it's a threat that's about as credible as telling me that the Twins of Solstice won't bring me any gifts if I'm naughty, but if you did believe that such a horrific afterlife existed, I can absolutely understand wanting to avoid it. But you're telling me that this notion is old-fashioned and not a part of what you believe.

So: Number 1 is anticlimactic, number 2 isn't a problem, and number 3 according to you isn't what happens. So again I ask: What exactly is it necessary that we be saved from?

Now, if you're saying that it'd preferable to enter the Kingdom of Heaven then sure, okay. Fine. I'll let you have that one. I'm not a god after all, maybe gods know how to make existing for an infinite span of time 100% pleasant 100% of the time. Tell you what, we'll even ignore the burden of proof this time. But given that we've established that nothing actually bad happens to those who don't make it in, then that means there's no actual pressing need to be converted. It's at most a happy bonus.



Sure. The difference being, nobody's claiming that those things are the revealed perfect wisdom of the divine creator.

In any case, they're not the same sort of thing. Claims about the existence of the states of salvation and damnation don't belong to the same category as discussions about honor and duty. Honor and duty are codes of human conduct, not statements about the reality of the universe and what exists within it.

The non-theological field that does address the reality of the universe and what exists within it would be the physical sciences, and once you set physics down alongside theology and compare the two side-by-side you see abundantly less confusion, individual interpretation, schism and so forth in physics. It's often said that there isn't a single passage of Scripture that hasn't been deliberated (argued) over. The Gravitational Constant on the other hand just isn't up for debate: it's 6.67398 × 10^-11 m3 kg^-1 s^-2.

Pretty much every culture in New Eden arrived at that figure independent of one another, and agreed on it. Anybody attempting to find an alternative "interpretation" of the Gravitational Constant is crazy. It's a solid verifiable fact, uniform and constant across the entire universe so far as we can tell, and even some impossibly remote splinter colony of the human species off in some distant galaxy somewhere, billions of years out of our reach, that was only just now clawing its way out of the dark ages would come up with the exact same figure.

The Amarrian scriptures can't even remain consistent on whether the word "know" means to become acquainted with, or to have sex.

The point I'm making is that if this stuff really was the perfect revealed wisdom of God, as some Amarrian sects proclaim, then such confused and varied interpretation simply wouldn't exist. It seems to me that the revealed truth and wisdom of Divinity would be as concrete and universal as the Gravitational Constant, or gamma (relativistic time dilation), or the Standard Model of particle physics. There wouldn't be such a thing as heresy, just idiocy. There wouldn't be orthodoxy and dogma, just what's true.

And the answer remains the same as it has the past two times I’ve answered it. I won’t repeat it again. Its necessary to us because its what were told to do, the method of which it is done is what is most controversial.



I’ve already stated why its bad, its left up to you to either understand why it’s bad or simply ignore it, and again I’m not attempting to convert you or making a case to convert you. If your prefe non-existance to the glory of God then so be it. I really don’t care, its your choice.



You don’t blame the source for the willful misleading of the person using it. The truth is written down, and those who chose to read it may do so and read the truth. The issue however remains in the deep seated theocratic leadership whom has absoloute control over the masses through generations of digging in. The wisdom of the divine is concrete, the wisdom of the men who are misleading the masses is not.

I'm afraid none of my answers will satisfy you however.