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CCP! Please clarify the future plans for WiS!

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Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#401 - 2011-10-26 16:19:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Bomberlocks wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
...
So Simple correction. While I might seem to be a "high sec" representative, that is not all that I am. I am one of the rare low sec dwellers. I know, a care bear low sec-er!!! How can that be?? I've been playing this as my main game for 7 years and have multiple accounts, I've been in the CSM twice, have caps of my own, lived in low sec, been part of two of the biggest null sec alliances to date. Other than building my own outpost (which I consider my personal end game) there isn't much in Eve I haven't done. I'm even one of the dozen or so people that have made Eve news make the main steam press. I'm not pointing that out for my ego, personally I wish the two incidents that made that happen wouldn't have. I'm just saying I know a little about Eve.

What I have chosen over the last couple of years would be to build what most folks would call a care bear alliance. I don't know why but that sort of cat herding is what I seem to enjoy the most. I continue to fight to try an create something in Eve that shows folks not falling into the easy path of finding your inner asshat you can act in a friendly and helpful way to other folks in Eve. Basically I'm one of the minority that still tries to live by NRDS. Can't say I always have success but I think in a lot of ways what I'm trying to accomplish is every bit has hard as 0.0 sov. Maybe, maybe not, but Eve is all about finding what YOU want to focus your time on.

So I started this thread after seeing player after player get tired of the limits of the pod and ships as the only part of the SciFi sim they thought they signed up for. I saw a lot of ex players come back when what CCP tried to pass off as Incarna was released. Very few stayed, not because there wasn't enough FiS, they left because they saw that CCP lied about ambulation and clearly was using Eve to pay for WoD and Dust. They left because they realized CCP was more interested in squeezing more cash from us in the NeX store than delivering the WiS experience that they have teased us with for nearly 5 years.

So as a person that I think I could make a case for that has committed more to Eve that 90% of the other players I believe the future success of Eve depends on showing us that this is a SciFi simulator and not just more ships of different sizes 'sploding each other in space. I firmly believe WiS needs to happen to save Eve because without it the player base will never grow beyond the peaks it has seen before.

I share that thought in these forums but when you characterize me or what I am trying to accomplish in this discussion please make sure you know of what you speak.

Issler

That was quite a lot of words to avoid responding to the point, Issler. Whether you're a nullsec sovholder or hisec miner makes no difference: CCP was bleeding subs so heavily this year that they may very have had to shut down by next year had they not refocused on FiS. Since they have done that, the PCU numbers have started to climb again and the winter expansion, where a lot of the promised features and fixes will be rolled out, will tell whether it was the right or wrong business decision.

If CCP thinks they can save the business by focussing on FiS, then that is what they will do. CCP made some very bad business decisions in the past and their attempted money grabs in the form of :$99 dollah: and Monoclegate left them in a very weak state.

Winter will be the make or break expansion to see if the FiS features will bring back all the unsubbed bittervets, who are mostly still waiting for what-they-do-not-what-they-say.

And I say again, when and if business has picked up again, Dust has launched and there is a period of relative calm and satisfaction, then CCP will most likely go back to developing WiS, but until then WiS will remain the corpses of the pods that were popped using rebalanced Hybrids and T3 BCs.


THIS

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


Because FiS is seriously faulty to some people,


Yeah FIXING IT wouldnt help at all

Alistair Cononach wrote:
I wouldn't ask for Spaceships in World of Warcraft.

I don't want pointless no-content Avatars in my Economic/Spaceship/Combat Simulator Game EVE.

If WiS can be developed, with real actual content, without hurting or slowing development os the space/economic portions of EVE, then by all means go right ahead.

But if WiS Development in any way disrupts, slows or interferes with FiS Development, then I would not prefer WiS at all.

To each their own. This is my view. EVE is not for Avatars. EVE is for Spaceships, Space Combat, A Semi-Sandbox and Economics.


This as well

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#402 - 2011-10-26 17:40:18 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
"If you chase two rabbits, you will lose them both." - Native American saying


If you plan ahead properly and build a good trap, you catch them all without having to chase any. Smile

Yes but planning ahead was obviously the trap in this case

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#403 - 2011-10-26 17:45:57 UTC
Taiwanistan wrote:
boobies, that i can support
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#404 - 2011-10-26 18:54:20 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Agreed on the trolling, and yes these same points keep being brought up as new folks chime in.

As for the comment that WIS should be a distant thought for now, I can't get behind that one.

No offense, but I think now is the time for a small group of content designers to be thinking seriously about what the game plan (and game play) is going to be once they get to the point where they can think about starting work with it again.

I'm not talking a massive team, just those that specialize in the broad strokes... taking some time over the next few months to get their head around the concepts discussed in this thread and others... and figure out how to get things moving in the right direction without shooting themselves (and EVE's core game play) in the foot again.

They seriously need to set up a white board like they did for organizing their thoughts on the purpose and organization of Null Sec and establish some guidelines and goals, and define the lines they should never cross again.

I think this thread did serve a purpose, trolls aside. People on both sides of the debate found a bit of common ground, and most have acknowledged the sane points that were made on both sides.

That's pretty rare on this forum.

And perhaps, if/when WIS is looked at again in the future, this thread might just have some influence on the decisions that will be made. Anything that can help CCP to avoid causing anger on one side and disappointment on the other is a plus, however it turns out.


You know, I'm not opposed to your proposal at all. As people probably know by now my personal opposition to Incarna is NeX/MT + bad engine + no content.

If they have a tight group of designers go back and look at it again and perhaps base a redesign around a licensed unreal engine


Theyre using Unreal 3 for Dust... why not scrap the unusable engine they have now and use that here too? Tie WiS development with Dust rather than tying WiS development with WoD (as thats just as dead as it gets)


Yikes! I totally agree with you! :-)

That totally makes sense because Dust is intended to be tied to Eve, Vampires, not so much.

Issler
Ranka Mei
TANoshii Incorporated
#405 - 2011-10-26 18:54:51 UTC
Quote:
"If you chase two rabbits, you will lose them both." - Native American saying


"Don't put all your money on one horse." -- Ranka Mei's First Rule Of Doing Prudent Business.

N.B. For those who didn't get it: don't do either exclusively FiS or WiS.

-- "All your monies AUR belong to us!" -- CCP
AJ Yaga
Those Magnificent Men In Their Flying Machines.
#406 - 2011-10-26 19:07:25 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
I think most people DO want walking in stations, just not the way it was implemented.

This tbh
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#407 - 2011-10-26 19:15:16 UTC
Some key points I think were misrepresented by some of the posters.

1. We lost a lot of subs, that was not just in protest of WiS.

-It was a reaction to a lame single room/player WiS
-The golden ammo microtransaction face plant that is Nex (which is still here by the way)
-Stagnant FiS and rage over what had clearly been CCP sucking Eve dry while using that cash to build two other games
-Burnout when it became clear that nothing "new" can be expected in Eve anytime soon
-CCP's clear disconnect with NeX pricing and the greed is good leaked newsletter (monocolegate)

2. CCP describes Eve as a Scifi simulator, not a space combat game.

3. This thread is not WiS over FIS. It is "CCP please keep something on the burner, not on ice" for folks that believe WiS will make Eve better.

4. There is now way to know what percentage of folks in Eve want FiS only, Wis, Wis and FiS, a fox in a box or a train. But clearly to say no one in Eve wants WiS is simply wrong.

5. WiS is not space barbies, it is key to RP and emmersiveness and the community has already shared a number of ideas that would make WiS interesting to many folks in Eve.

6. WiS can be decoupled from WoD. Branch the code and move the team on WoD to WiS. CCP can come back to WoD when they get the increase in Eve subscriptions delivering ambulation creates.

Issler
Ranka Mei
TANoshii Incorporated
#408 - 2011-10-26 19:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranka Mei
Issler Dainze wrote:
Some key points I think were misrepresented by some of the posters.

1. We lost a lot of subs, that was not just in protest of WiS.

-It was a reaction to a lame single room/player WiS
-The golden ammo microtransaction face plant that is Nex (which is still here by the way)
-Stagnant FiS and rage over what had clearly been CCP sucking Eve dry while using that cash to build two other games
-Burnout when it became clear that nothing "new" can be expected in Eve anytime soon
-CCP's clear disconnect with NeX pricing and the greed is good leaked newsletter (monocolegate)

2. CCP describes Eve as a Scifi simulator, not a space combat game.

3. This thread is not WiS over FIS. It is "CCP please keep something on the burner, not on ice" for folks that believe WiS will make Eve better.

4. There is now way to know what percentage of folks in Eve want FiS only, Wis, Wis and FiS, a fox in a box or a train. But clearly to say no one in Eve wants WiS is simply wrong.

5. WiS is not space barbies, it is key to RP and emmersiveness and the community has already shared a number of ideas that would make WiS interesting to many folks in Eve.

6. WiS can be decoupled from WoD. Branch the code and move the team on WoD to WiS. CCP can come back to WoD when they get the increase in Eve subscriptions delivering ambulation creates.

Issler


QFT.

You make good posts. :)

-- "All your monies AUR belong to us!" -- CCP
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#409 - 2011-10-26 19:41:42 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:

3. This thread is not WiS over FIS. It is "CCP please keep something on the burner, not on ice" for folks that believe WiS will make Eve better.
Issler


Well there were ppl saying exactly that in this thread. I think they got pruned tho.

But when the devs tell you they cant support spreading themselves out and THATS why theyre focussing on EVE, telling them to work on WiS anyways is telling them to do more damage at this point. Thats why I keep saying (loudly) let the company heal and THEN get back to WiS

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Ranka Mei
TANoshii Incorporated
#410 - 2011-10-26 19:53:42 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:

3. This thread is not WiS over FIS. It is "CCP please keep something on the burner, not on ice" for folks that believe WiS will make Eve better.
Issler


Well there were ppl saying exactly that in this thread. I think they got pruned tho.

But when the devs tell you they cant support spreading themselves out and THATS why theyre focussing on EVE, telling them to work on WiS anyways is telling them to do more damage at this point. Thats why I keep saying (loudly) let the company heal and THEN get back to WiS


And I'm saying: CCP only turned half-way. Instead of holding on to WoD, they should have taken the ultimate consequence of realizing you're spread too thin: spreading yourself less thin; which is to say, letting go of WoD. Then they could have put the team assigned to WoD entirely on the further development of WiS, wihout taking any resources, personnel-wise, off of EVE. And it would have made perfect sense too, as the WoD folks were essentially already working on WiS like code.

And you know what?! They could still do that! *wink*

-- "All your monies AUR belong to us!" -- CCP
Crucis Cassiopeiae
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#411 - 2011-10-26 19:58:21 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Some key points I think were misrepresented by some of the posters.

1. We lost a lot of subs, that was not just in protest of WiS.

-It was a reaction to a lame single room/player WiS
-The golden ammo microtransaction face plant that is Nex (which is still here by the way)
-Stagnant FiS and rage over what had clearly been CCP sucking Eve dry while using that cash to build two other games
-Burnout when it became clear that nothing "new" can be expected in Eve anytime soon
-CCP's clear disconnect with NeX pricing and the greed is good leaked newsletter (monocolegate)

2. CCP describes Eve as a Scifi simulator, not a space combat game.

3. This thread is not WiS over FIS. It is "CCP please keep something on the burner, not on ice" for folks that believe WiS will make Eve better.

4. There is now way to know what percentage of folks in Eve want FiS only, Wis, Wis and FiS, a fox in a box or a train. But clearly to say no one in Eve wants WiS is simply wrong.

5. WiS is not space barbies, it is key to RP and emmersiveness and the community has already shared a number of ideas that would make WiS interesting to many folks in Eve.

6. WiS can be decoupled from WoD. Branch the code and move the team on WoD to WiS. CCP can come back to WoD when they get the increase in Eve subscriptions delivering ambulation creates.

Issler



GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD POST !

Vote Issler Dainze for CSM7! http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=470 
Valari Nala Zena
Perkone
Caldari State
#412 - 2011-10-26 20:02:42 UTC
In case CCP doesn't really know what direction to go with WiS, it would probably not be a bad idea to make a POLL about it.

Send a link to that POLL to every highest SP toon ingame mail or maybe even better, a simple advertisement link on the EVE main screen to attract attention to the subject.

People that wish to voice their opinion about WiS, good or bad, can just click the link.

The results of that should give CCP a pretty good idea of what most people in EVE actually want.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#413 - 2011-10-26 20:08:17 UTC
Ranka Mei wrote:
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:

3. This thread is not WiS over FIS. It is "CCP please keep something on the burner, not on ice" for folks that believe WiS will make Eve better.
Issler


Well there were ppl saying exactly that in this thread. I think they got pruned tho.

But when the devs tell you they cant support spreading themselves out and THATS why theyre focussing on EVE, telling them to work on WiS anyways is telling them to do more damage at this point. Thats why I keep saying (loudly) let the company heal and THEN get back to WiS


And I'm saying: CCP only turned half-way. Instead of holding on to WoD, they should have taken the ultimate consequence of realizing you're spread too thin: spreading yourself less thin; which is to say, letting go of WoD. Then they could have put the team assigned to WoD entirely on the further development of WiS, wihout taking any resources, personnel-wise, off of EVE. And it would have made perfect sense too, as the WoD folks were essentially already working on WiS like code.

And you know what?! They could still do that! *wink*


Mine's a little harsher but yeah

Kengutsi Akira wrote:


I know its hard, but Im not trying to troll, it just looks kinda obvious to me that if WiS wasnt the disposable bit here, theyd have repurposed code and content guys from WoD to WiS after they decided to refocus. Coding monkeys from WoD could work in EVE's WiS stuff given theyre supposedly both running on the same engine yes? So why didnt they? I get the money and that rather huge loan coming due, but they could have made the cut more broader and kept the WoD talent.
Youd think those guys would be gold, working on JUST WiS style content, as I dont see any other kind of content being put in WoD. SO, they gut the WoD devs and stop working on WiS. Looks pretty damn obvious what theyre planning


An yea, they still could but Im thinking the contract they signed merging with White Wolf has to play SOME kind of factor here, otherwise why the hell DID they keep ppl working on a game that will never see the light of day at this point? Theyre just wasting money :p

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#414 - 2011-10-26 20:12:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Valari Nala Zena wrote:
In case CCP doesn't really know what direction to go with WiS, it would probably not be a bad idea to make a POLL about it.

Send a link to that POLL to every highest SP toon ingame mail or maybe even better, a simple advertisement link on the EVE main screen to attract attention to the subject.

People that wish to voice their opinion about WiS, good or bad, can just click the link.

The results of that should give CCP a pretty good idea of what most people in EVE actually want.


yeah.... no you do that an you might as well just take a poll of 0.0
Then again, what use do 0.0 guys have for WiS? Unless they decide to make WiS for POSes too

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Mekela
Vinyl Roid
#415 - 2011-10-26 20:14:36 UTC
CCP has a major problem right now and that is - What is EVE?

For as long as I have played I have understood EVE to be a Sci Fi sim, however there is a group in EVE that only likes the Spaceship part of EVE. For the longest time it didn't matter as all of EVE was simply Spaceships as our avatar. Unfortunately CCP completely forgot what EVE was about and started doing things for money not for a purpose. Because of this loss of identity CCP screwed up majorly and they started to lose subs for the first time. Panic has ensued and CCP desperate to stop the bleeding quickly made some rash decisions. They listened to the loudest complaints and figured if they fixed that it would mollify people.

IMO they are making a huge mistake in doing this, they are still lost and the identity of EVE is in danger of being reduced to - A space ship game. EVE is so much more and they need to remember what EVE is or they will continue to lose subs.

If you ask how is EVE more than FiS look to Eve’s past and see.
- EVE is an economic game. They once hired an economist to show people how things were going in Eve. He was supposed to put out a quarterly newsletter telling us how things where being shaped economically. Now we are lucky to have him speak up once a year if that.
- Eve is an industrial game. Originally they stated that all things should be made by the players and worked to slowly remove all items from being sold only by NPC's. Then they said hey we can make money and the NEX was born removing what they promised would be a feature of more goods being able to be created by players.

By turning away from WiS they are doing much of the same, they are forgetting the principle that Eve is a Sci Fi sim and more than just FiS.

Eve needs to remember what it is and what it’s goal are or they are going to cause more harm than good with the fixes they are trying to implement to “stop the bleeding”
Ranka Mei
TANoshii Incorporated
#416 - 2011-10-26 20:15:24 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:

An yea, they still could but Im thinking the contract they signed merging with White Wolf has to play SOME kind of factor here, otherwise why the hell DID they keep ppl working on a game that will never see the light of day at this point? Theyre just wasting money :p


Yeah, it's gotta be a legal issue, as I can't possibly see any viable future for WoD (except maybe to cannibalize it for useful bits of code for WiS; you know, put the shoe on the other goose, for a change).

-- "All your monies AUR belong to us!" -- CCP
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#417 - 2011-10-26 20:25:30 UTC
Mekela wrote:

If you ask how is EVE more than FiS look to Eve’s past and see.
- EVE is an economic game. They once hired an economist to show people how things were going in Eve. He was supposed to put out a quarterly newsletter telling us how things where being shaped economically. Now we are lucky to have him speak up once a year if that.
- Eve is an industrial game. Originally they stated that all things should be made by the players and worked to slowly remove all items from being sold only by NPC's. Then they said hey we can make money and the NEX was born removing what they promised would be a feature of more goods being able to be created by players.



k... how is that related to WiS?
Economist: standing in your CQ selling and buying? I can see where the RP element would like it but yeah...
Industrialist: youre damn sure not going out there yourself to mine

explain please

Plus, EVE is a spaceships game. Spaceships are what they use to advertise it at lease. Look at the "I was there" vid. Was that about walking around in a station, playing poker, etc? No, it was about spaceships blowing each other up.

CCP knows this is a spaceships game, otherwise they WOULD be focussing on WiS instead of the rest of EVE.

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
CyberRaver
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#418 - 2011-10-26 20:27:51 UTC
WIS and the whole dressing up idea is terrible, eve is about epic space battles and tales of yarr and woe, Keep it as FIS and let the people that wanna play dress up go back to wow
Mekela
Vinyl Roid
#419 - 2011-10-26 20:35:59 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Mekela wrote:

If you ask how is EVE more than FiS look to Eve’s past and see.
- EVE is an economic game. They once hired an economist to show people how things were going in Eve. He was supposed to put out a quarterly newsletter telling us how things where being shaped economically. Now we are lucky to have him speak up once a year if that.
- Eve is an industrial game. Originally they stated that all things should be made by the players and worked to slowly remove all items from being sold only by NPC's. Then they said hey we can make money and the NEX was born removing what they promised would be a feature of more goods being able to be created by players.



k... how is that related to WiS?
Economist: standing in your CQ selling and buying? I can see where the RP element would like it but yeah...
Industrialist: youre damn sure not going out there yourself to mine

explain please

Plus, EVE is a spaceships game. Spaceships are what they use to advertise it at lease. Look at the "I was there" vid. Was that about walking around in a station, playing poker, etc? No, it was about spaceships blowing each other up.

CCP knows this is a spaceships game, otherwise they WOULD be focussing on WiS instead of the rest of EVE.


This is the fight that has been created - Tell what vid could you show that isn't a spaceship. Please read my whole post, just because all people were able to do was fly about in a spaceship did not mean thats all EVE is and was. Look at the future of EVE advertisement. That is what EVE is suposed to become. If CCP thinks that all EVE can be is a spaceship game then it has pretty much decided to go against its own mission statement and if that is true EVE is going to continue to bleed till it determines to either create a new mission for EVE or return to the orginal mission.

From what I see you are in the camp "EVE is only FiS" I feel bad for EVE if they decided to follow your route as it severly limits what they can do and where EVE is going.
Ranka Mei
TANoshii Incorporated
#420 - 2011-10-26 20:39:52 UTC
Mekela wrote:

IMO they are making a huge mistake in doing this, they are still lost and the identity of EVE is in danger of being reduced to - A space ship game. EVE is so much more and they need to remember what EVE is or they will continue to lose subs.


Indeed. There's not much love for Hilmar going around these days, but if you look at things from a distance, it's clear where part of his frustration is coming from: EVE could indeed be so much more! Right now, EVE is a space game, and a game of economy, and a game of industry. Yet only the space part really enjoys a visual component, which is a shame, as 'visualizing' the other aspects of the game would no doubt greatly add to it.

Where things got awry, is when Hilmar got wise to the whole in-game merchandizing schpiel. He was not even wrong in realizing the game industry is moving in that direction. Alas, he got greedy, figured he could sell $80 monocles, and cash in overnight. And then he made his second mistake: coupling the merchandizing idea (the NeX store) to Incarna, to the degree of pushing out Incarna, at all cost, just to be a showcase for virtual goods at Needlessly eXpensive prices.

And now people have a hard time separating their hatred for the NeX store from the idea of Incarna -- especially since Incarna was released without actual content (and no, NeX store items are not content, lol). I nonetheless remain steadfast in my belief that WiS has the potential to greatly enhance the game, and should not be abandoned haphazardly.

-- "All your monies AUR belong to us!" -- CCP