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FW STILL BROKEN?
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qijong jin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-02-16 17:16:08 UTC
also instead of plexing gaining you ranks wouldnt it be better to have it as rank is attained through the amount of kills u get( yeah i know people could make fw alts and kill them) rank could be tied to an lp multiplier the higher the rank the mire lp u get from kill/plexes. there would need to be a isk killed value for each rank. just a lame idea maybe may help with psetting the farmers .
qijong jin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-02-16 17:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: qijong jin
qijong jin wrote:
also instead of plexing gaining you ranks wouldnt it be better to have it as rank is attained through the amount of kills u get( yeah i know people could make fw alts and kill them) rank could be tied to an lp multiplier the higher the rank the mire lp u get from kill/plexes. there would need to be a isk killed value for each rank. just a lame idea maybe may help with psetting the farmers .


could help promote pvp and bring meaning to ranks in fw
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-02-16 17:53:40 UTC
qijong jin wrote:
qijong jin wrote:
also instead of plexing gaining you ranks wouldnt it be better to have it as rank is attained through the amount of kills u get( yeah i know people could make fw alts and kill them) rank could be tied to an lp multiplier the higher the rank the mire lp u get from kill/plexes. there would need to be a isk killed value for each rank. just a lame idea maybe may help with psetting the farmers .


could help promote pvp and bring meaning to ranks in fw


Were you supposed to switch to an alt before posting that reply?

You have a point in that the pvper chasing the enemy farmers away from the plex is not as well rewarded as his fellow farmer who sits in the Plex he cleared out. But its tricky to add in-game rewards for kills when its so easy to pad your stats. Capping plexes is actually harder in that regard.
qijong jin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-02-16 17:59:28 UTC
Takseen wrote:
qijong jin wrote:
qijong jin wrote:
also instead of plexing gaining you ranks wouldnt it be better to have it as rank is attained through the amount of kills u get( yeah i know people could make fw alts and kill them) rank could be tied to an lp multiplier the higher the rank the mire lp u get from kill/plexes. there would need to be a isk killed value for each rank. just a lame idea maybe may help with psetting the farmers .


could help promote pvp and bring meaning to ranks in fw


Were you supposed to switch to an alt before posting that reply?

You have a point in that the pvper chasing the enemy farmers away from the plex is not as well rewarded as his fellow farmer who sits in the Plex he cleared out. But its tricky to add in-game rewards for kills when its so easy to pad your stats. Capping plexes is actually harder in that regard.


lol no forgot to add it to the previous post.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#25 - 2013-02-16 21:03:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
Edit:

No its not - it's just not what everyone thinks they wanted!



By the way I bolded, italiced and underlined the important part for those without reading comprehension to lvl 5

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#26 - 2013-02-16 23:41:45 UTC
FW isn't broken. There's a few tweaks in the backlog, but generally, the system is good.

You can't make people fight. Any occupancy based on kills will just result in alt farming.
subtle turtle
Doozer Mining Cartel
#27 - 2013-02-17 05:53:14 UTC
I don't understand why people are STILL pushing for higher LP per kill. Do people not remember what happened when inferno hit and the goons wrecked the entire market?

OP, the idea of making fw an entirely pvp mechanic has been around for as long as fw has been in the game, and it's still as bad an idea as it was when it was proposed years ago. Please reference the 100000000000 other threads on the topic.

The system we have now may have some flaws, but over all it's not bad, and it's generating great fights and content, so enjoy it. Further iteration will likely just cause new and different problems.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-02-17 20:11:20 UTC
Things are a lot different now compared to the time of the goon exploit. The goon exploit was really a market price exploit that used the LP payouts as a conversion. My understanding is that that has been fixed.

Also that militia always cashed out at tier 5 with huge ISK and LP discounts. That is no longer possible.

If CCP believes that PVP LP rewards are not exploitable with the current tier 5 multiplayer then my feeling would be that PVP LP should payout at that level all the time.

I was a supporter of the timer roll back but even with that mechanic you are still waiting for the timer if you intent to defend the plex, you can just wander off for a bit.

Also chasing farmers round is no fun, my preference is for roll backs and two timers one for each faction. That way even if they put 20minutes on the timer you always can complete your timer in the normal time.

Whatever happened to the better system upgrades and the Cynojammer?
Almighty Narshe
The Zetetic Elench
#29 - 2013-02-17 20:19:11 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I made the suggestion at one point to allow FW kills to move the contested bar. It might be a good 'in addition to' but it can never be a mandatory requirement. If the enemy decides not to engage you then you are stuck. What?

Regardless, from an Amarrian point of view, FW has become quite feudalist. I live in Siseide. I patrol Dal, Vard, and Lantorn in addition to my home system. I attack into Auga, Hof, and Eszur. I'll roam beyond that range when my FC calls for it.

It is incredibly difficult to push a reasonably sized group out of their home system. You need massive numbers covering a wide time zone span. We can't seem to make any progress in Auga or Eszur. Our primary adversaries likewise can't seem to push us back. There are large swaths of empty systems in the warzone. They keep flipping back and forth and will continue to do so. Even if a side focuses in and captures one of the primary enemy hubs (Kamela), the effort is so exhausting that it doesn't translate into a threat for our castle.

The two largest Minmatar alliances live three systems away from Siseide but we see them only on roams. To my eyes they operate the same way. Home system. Patrol Zone- usually within two systems. It is very feudalist in nature.


You will never take Auga! FOR THE REPUBLIC!!!!
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#30 - 2013-02-17 20:23:57 UTC
Almighty Narshe wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I made the suggestion at one point to allow FW kills to move the contested bar. It might be a good 'in addition to' but it can never be a mandatory requirement. If the enemy decides not to engage you then you are stuck. What?

Regardless, from an Amarrian point of view, FW has become quite feudalist. I live in Siseide. I patrol Dal, Vard, and Lantorn in addition to my home system. I attack into Auga, Hof, and Eszur. I'll roam beyond that range when my FC calls for it.

It is incredibly difficult to push a reasonably sized group out of their home system. You need massive numbers covering a wide time zone span. We can't seem to make any progress in Auga or Eszur. Our primary adversaries likewise can't seem to push us back. There are large swaths of empty systems in the warzone. They keep flipping back and forth and will continue to do so. Even if a side focuses in and captures one of the primary enemy hubs (Kamela), the effort is so exhausting that it doesn't translate into a threat for our castle.

The two largest Minmatar alliances live three systems away from Siseide but we see them only on roams. To my eyes they operate the same way. Home system. Patrol Zone- usually within two systems. It is very feudalist in nature.


You will never take Auga! FOR THE REPUBLIC!!!!


In your pocket is it? Prepare to be mugged. (And we would take it if Almity would sign off on my marvelous and far-seeing strategy)
Almighty Narshe
The Zetetic Elench
#31 - 2013-02-17 20:52:37 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Almighty Narshe wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I made the suggestion at one point to allow FW kills to move the contested bar. It might be a good 'in addition to' but it can never be a mandatory requirement. If the enemy decides not to engage you then you are stuck. What?

Regardless, from an Amarrian point of view, FW has become quite feudalist. I live in Siseide. I patrol Dal, Vard, and Lantorn in addition to my home system. I attack into Auga, Hof, and Eszur. I'll roam beyond that range when my FC calls for it.

It is incredibly difficult to push a reasonably sized group out of their home system. You need massive numbers covering a wide time zone span. We can't seem to make any progress in Auga or Eszur. Our primary adversaries likewise can't seem to push us back. There are large swaths of empty systems in the warzone. They keep flipping back and forth and will continue to do so. Even if a side focuses in and captures one of the primary enemy hubs (Kamela), the effort is so exhausting that it doesn't translate into a threat for our castle.

The two largest Minmatar alliances live three systems away from Siseide but we see them only on roams. To my eyes they operate the same way. Home system. Patrol Zone- usually within two systems. It is very feudalist in nature.


You will never take Auga! FOR THE REPUBLIC!!!!


In your pocket is it? Prepare to be mugged. (And we would take it if Almity would sign off on my marvelous and far-seeing strategy)


You have left me with no choice sir, I shall tell my mum on you!
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-02-17 21:23:31 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
Things are a lot different now compared to the time of the goon exploit. The goon exploit was really a market price exploit that used the LP payouts as a conversion. My understanding is that that has been fixed.

Also that militia always cashed out at tier 5 with huge ISK and LP discounts. That is no longer possible.

If CCP believes that PVP LP rewards are not exploitable with the current tier 5 multiplayer then my feeling would be that PVP LP should payout at that level all the time.

I was a supporter of the timer roll back but even with that mechanic you are still waiting for the timer if you intent to defend the plex, you can just wander off for a bit.

Also chasing farmers round is no fun, my preference is for roll backs and two timers one for each faction. That way even if they put 20minutes on the timer you always can complete your timer in the normal time.

Whatever happened to the better system upgrades and the Cynojammer?


Roll back timer would be nice, dont need two timers, just roll it back, or at least start there and see how it goes.....should make it a lot better

And PVP cashouts at perma L4 would be nice, L5 could get a bit high and possible exploitable..... but another 75% to 150% on LP PVP payments would really help fuel pvp and that does great things for the market.....

more combat means more fun by a large chunk of pilots, more ships being sold, more minerals being used up, and more LP means more isk out of the game..... some items dont take isk out, but they never add isk into the game....and most remove 1m isk per 1k LP

I think them two small tweeks would go a long way in improving FW. but honestly I could just live as it is.....its the most fun ive had in EVE in a long time. Only issue is the birth of my daughter who is now 5mo takes a lot of my time lol
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#33 - 2013-02-17 21:29:00 UTC

LP for kills as concept is wrong.

In EVE echosystem the role of PVP kills is to destroy ISK not to create more ISK, so cannot pushed too much; while LP for kill is a nice addition to FW I think we are already borderline with the current settings. FW Is the only place in EVE where a kill produce a direct reward (beside the loot).

The sov mechanics seems fine to me now. We can discuss about tweeking and so on (for instance I'd like to have defencive timer running faster than now, but this could make capturing the systems too much harder, so should be balanced); but the mechanic seems working fine to me in general.

After all is a "capture the flag" delayed over time, nothing so drammatic.

And needs to be delayed over time, or would be a pain for group with less nummbers and to compensate the timezones gap.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-02-17 22:07:33 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:

LP for kills as concept is wrong.

In EVE echosystem the role of PVP kills is to destroy ISK not to create more ISK, so cannot pushed too much; while LP for kill is a nice addition to FW I think we are already borderline with the current settings. FW Is the only place in EVE where a kill produce a direct reward (beside the loot).


LP creation is not ISK creation. Its actually an ISK sink because you need to spend some ISK to cash in the LP for items.

Sura Sadiva wrote:

After all is a "capture the flag" delayed over time, nothing so drammatic.


Actually its more like Domination mode. Capture the Flag mode in Eve would be interesting.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#35 - 2013-02-17 22:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Takseen wrote:

LP creation is not ISK creation. Its actually an ISK sink because you need to spend some ISK to cash in the LP for items.


Doesn't matter. In the global equation LP for kill reduces the gap of "stuff" destoryed and "stuff" produced (LP).

Without LP for kill reward is plain desturction.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-02-17 22:39:03 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Takseen wrote:

LP creation is not ISK creation. Its actually an ISK sink because you need to spend some ISK to cash in the LP for items.


Doesn't matter. In the global equation LP for kill reduces the gap of "stuff" destoryed and "stuff" produced (LP).

Without LP for kill reward is plain desturction.


But it encourages more destruction in the first place. If it takes a little bribery to make it happen, so be it.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#37 - 2013-02-18 17:06:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
qijong jin wrote:
hopefully im putting this in the right forum section.

So I've been in faction warfare for quite some time and feel although ccp have tried to revamp and inject new life into Fw they have somewhat failed.

So with caldari losing every system at christmas and now the current onslaught of caldari plexers taking systems everywhere, what is the future for FW, burnout, tides turning every few months?]


The changes did inject some new life into the system.

Its hard to say how much of the new life are just alts farming plexes. I think quite a bit of it. But I am getting more pvp than I used to before they made any changes. How much is due to the low sec changes and how much is due to fw is unclear. It is clear to me that I am getting more fights per time interval by not being in fw.



qijong jin wrote:

What needs to be done, well over the last few weeks ive talked to gallente/caldari fw pilots who feel CCP need to relook at the currernt state of fw,

PVE based sovereignty is ridiculous in a pvp environment, so what can be done maybe if ccp based low sec sovereignty on 3 aspects currently enjoyed by eve players,

1: 50% of contested state should be on the basis of kills between opposing militias within a system(no more no less)
2; 30% of contested state based on plexing, further plexing gives u no gains to % of contested state.
3: 20% of contested state based on dust content.

better LP gains are needed for militia kills to offset any loses due to reduced number of plexes needed, this scenerio would promote
more pvp and the reduced number of plexes would deter farmers a little.

input on this idea good or bad is appreciated.

Farmers kill fw pod them all



The problem with basing sov on kills is that it means you can prevent your opponent from winning by never fighting in pvp.

It also leads to what I personally consider lame/no risk pvp like gate camping.

The fundemental idea behind plexes is great. Both militias are fighting for a reward and so they are willing to risk their ships to get it. It just needs to be tweaked.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#38 - 2013-02-18 17:19:08 UTC
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
Only issue is the birth of my daughter who is now 5mo takes a lot of my time lol

CCP should find a fix for this. Until then, FW is a broken mess.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-02-18 19:15:08 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
Only issue is the birth of my daughter who is now 5mo takes a lot of my time lol

CCP should find a fix for this. Until then, FW is a broken mess.


Try having two under two, that is a real time sink.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2013-02-18 23:30:43 UTC
FW isn't broken, the 'end game' did not happen, the never ending back and forth struggle that is FW is doing what it's supposed to do.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper