These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Reality suspended

First post
Author
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-02-15 18:50:27 UTC
Xercodo wrote:

That's pretty much all I meant, I was sparing them from the mechanics of photons and saying it "loses energy".

But thanks for the explanation, it supports my claim in the way that "lasers have a tiny amount of spray like a machine gun does, on a molecular level..."


Okay... how about he change it to "they lose energy density as the photons scatter over distance". It is the energy density, not the total energy, that does the damage.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-02-15 19:00:17 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Miss Spent Youth wrote:
Can I ask why we have falloff I do not understand how in space you get falloff. You would either hit, or if you tracking was bad , miss. The projectiles or laser beams would keep on going until they hit something. Especially light, it does not bend except under extreme gravity like a black hole or is reflected.
So why have CCP put it in the game. What am I missing, because based on the laws as we know them space combat would not work as it does in this game so there must be some game play reason they have done it.


Earch to Miss Spent...EVE is a game, not real space. It's just pixels on your monitor, rendered by a server that CCP let you play on.

Seriously, if you don't know what falloff is, search for EVE's weapon mechanics, got a great graph there that will show it to you.

Or you could of course set auto-pilot to any hostile null-sec system and let other players show it too you.

And if this really bothers you...


EVE is in space, how come we hear engine sounds from the outside of the ships. Space is a vacuum and in vacuum there is no sound (in before: EVE has sound?)

EVE is in space, vacuum means no friction, how do we stop our ships.

EVE is in space, vaccum means no friction, so bumping into something should make it move it away and should move you at the same speed the opposite way (2nd law of Newton: To every action, there is always an opposed and equal reaction).

How come we can fly through the sun and planets.

How come the planets etc. don't orbit their parent celestial.

Can continue the endless list.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-02-15 19:06:44 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

Spin stablised projectiles not having perfect rotational symmetry?


In vacuum, you don't need to spin stabilize the projectiles.


Prior to the invention of the rifle, we used spherical bullets. The problem with the sphere is that the bigger you make it, the bigger hole it has to punch in the air, slowing it down at a faster rate, meaning reduced range and not greater hitting power.

A better shape is long and skinny bullet, like we use now. You can have a large mass while still creating a small hole through the air.

The problem with this shape is that, air is trying to slow the front of a bullet more than the rear. This causes the bullet, if not spun, to begin to tumble. A tumbling bullet has an even larger cross section that the sphere. Also, the tumble, not unlike a curve ball in baseball, creates irregular air pressures around it causing the trajectory to curve in unpredictable directions.

Spinning the bullet prevents the tumbling because the total angular momentum is much higher. It is "harder" for the wind to push the nose of the bullet off in any given direction. The faster the bullet is traveling, the more spin you need to get on it to prevent the tumble. Fortunately, a longer barrel creates both the higher velocity and the faster spin.



In space, there no wind resistance to create the tumble, nor is there a problem with tumble anyway since you are not worried about wind resistance slowing the bullet or causing it to curve from intended trajectory.

Davith en Divalone
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-02-15 19:54:04 UTC
Miss Spent Youth wrote:
But in space there is no friction so why would a shot be inaccurate?


Well, if you want a slightly plausible explanation, you're trying to hit a moving target from a moving platform, possibly with a moving object. Your guns are making statistical estimates of the best trajectory given data about the objects in motion. Accuracy Falloff can be rationalized as the point at which cumulative measurement errors produce unreliable estimates of needed trajectory. Will McCarthy uses this concept in a battle scene in the novel, Lost in Transmission. The crew of the target spaceship create random fluctuations in the acceleration of their engines to increase the the error in their enemy's estimates of future trajectory.

Or, you can see it as just a game mechanic and relax.
Davith en Divalone
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-02-15 19:57:28 UTC
J'Poll wrote:

EVE is in space, how come we hear engine sounds from the outside of the ships. Space is a vacuum and in vacuum there is no sound (in before: EVE has sound?)


Explained as a translation of electromagnetic data as part of the pod interface. Which is also a good way to explain away why space is very colorful, and not to scale.
Evelyn Meiyi
Corvidae Trading and Holding
#26 - 2013-02-15 20:11:00 UTC
Miss Spent Youth wrote:
Can I ask why we have falloff I do not understand how in space you get falloff. You would either hit, or if you tracking was bad , miss. The projectiles or laser beams would keep on going until they hit something. Especially light, it does not bend except under extreme gravity like a black hole or is reflected.
So why have CCP put it in the game. What am I missing, because based on the laws as we know them space combat would not work as it does in this game so there must be some game play reason they have done it.


Because hitting someone that's literally on the other side of the grid from you is just a wee bit too powerful.....
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-02-15 20:31:19 UTC
Miss Spent Youth wrote:
Can I ask why we have falloff I do not understand how in space you get falloff. You would either hit, or if you tracking was bad , miss. The projectiles or laser beams would keep on going until they hit something. Especially light, it does not bend except under extreme gravity like a black hole or is reflected.
So why have CCP put it in the game. What am I missing, because based on the laws as we know them space combat would not work as it does in this game so there must be some game play reason they have done it.

right there "based on the laws as we know them".

we are in a separate region of the universe as the milky way, flying around in wormhole-heavy space, with ships powered by engines that break physical space.

its not insane to believe all the reality/space-breaking tech in New Eden has caused an affect on the way physical space operates.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-02-15 20:31:46 UTC
Davith en Divalone wrote:
J'Poll wrote:

EVE is in space, how come we hear engine sounds from the outside of the ships. Space is a vacuum and in vacuum there is no sound (in before: EVE has sound?)


Explained as a translation of electromagnetic data as part of the pod interface. Which is also a good way to explain away why space is very colorful, and not to scale.


Which again means...this isn't real space....

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-02-15 21:41:22 UTC
Why the planets don't move?

Why can we sit motionless above a planet and not be sucked in by gravity? Why can we bounce harmlessly off a moon/planet/sun...

Why can't I pull in an asteroid with a tractor beam?

Why is there a max speed? Why does our ship slow down when we turn off afterburner?

Why do we hear sounds of other ships?

Why are out "camera drones" not destroyed when our ship goes boom? How about we create the whole ship out of whatever that camera that is showing us the outside of our ship is made out of?

Why does autopilot warp to 5K off gate?

why, why, why....

Because it is a game!
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-02-15 23:56:41 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Why the planets don't move?

Why can we sit motionless above a planet and not be sucked in by gravity? Why can we bounce harmlessly off a moon/planet/sun...

Why can't I pull in an asteroid with a tractor beam?

Why is there a max speed? Why does our ship slow down when we turn off afterburner?

Why do we hear sounds of other ships?

Why are out "camera drones" not destroyed when our ship goes boom? How about we create the whole ship out of whatever that camera that is showing us the outside of our ship is made out of?

Why does autopilot warp to 5K off gate?

why, why, why....

Because it is a game!


AP is 15k not 5...

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-02-16 00:04:18 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Davith en Divalone wrote:
J'Poll wrote:

EVE is in space, how come we hear engine sounds from the outside of the ships. Space is a vacuum and in vacuum there is no sound (in before: EVE has sound?)


Explained as a translation of electromagnetic data as part of the pod interface. Which is also a good way to explain away why space is very colorful, and not to scale.


Which again means...this isn't real space....


It's a hyper liquid Big smile

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Miss Spent Youth
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-02-16 02:30:47 UTC
J'Poll wrote:


Earch to Miss Spent...EVE is a game, not real space. It's just pixels on your monitor, rendered by a server that CCP let you play on.

Seriously, if you don't know what falloff is, search for EVE's weapon mechanics, got a great graph there that will show it to you.

Or you could of course set auto-pilot to any hostile null-sec system and let other players show it too you.

And if this really bothers you...


EVE is in space, how come we hear engine sounds from the outside of the ships. Space is a vacuum and in vacuum there is no sound (in before: EVE has sound?)

EVE is in space, vacuum means no friction, how do we stop our ships.

EVE is in space, vaccum means no friction, so bumping into something should make it move it away and should move you at the same speed the opposite way (2nd law of Newton: To every action, there is always an opposed and equal reaction).

How come we can fly through the sun and planets.

How come the planets etc. don't orbit their parent celestial.

Can continue the endless list.


How is it that some in this thread can answer my question seriously and yet someone who professes to be,
J'Poll wrote:
New player friendly pilot here. So if you have questions just join my channel: Crazy Dutch Guy and ask away

Answers me in a snippy derogatory way? I have read many posts by you and you seem anything but New player friendly. You seem to like the sound of your on voice and are snippy at best. If you want to help new players I applaud you, but please do not do it sounding like a petulant child.
I asked a perfectly valid question and expressed my confusion, You could have taken a little time to answer it in a more adult way as others have try to do.
Merouk Baas
#33 - 2013-02-16 02:35:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Merouk Baas
Miss Spent Youth wrote:
But in space there is no friction so why would a shot be inaccurate?


Shots are inaccurate because of aiming wrong.

The longer the distance to a target, and the smaller the target, the harder it is to predict where it will be and how it will zig-zag, and land a bullet on it. Think of snipers and how they have to lead the target and predict where he/she will run. Imagine the sniper in space with no friction on the bullet; he'll still miss because it takes the bullet 5-10 seconds to get to the target, and the target can decide to stop and run back AFTER the sniper has fired his shot.

Your next question is going to be "Why do lasers miss, then?" and the answer is "Why don't YOU grab a laser pointer and try to keep it aimed on a guy running around randomly at 300 m from you?"

In any case, your questions are a little bit pointless. ANYTHING can be explained away with technobabble, and this is a sci-fi game, technobabble is a staple of the genre.
Merouk Baas
#34 - 2013-02-16 02:43:11 UTC
Miss Spent Youth wrote:
How is it that some in this thread can answer my question seriously and yet someone who professes to be [newbie friendly] answers me in a snippy derogatory way?

I asked a perfectly valid question and expressed my confusion, You could have taken a little time to answer it in a more adult way as others have try to do.


No, your questions aren't "perfectly valid," they are complaints that the game is not realistic, disguised as questions. They are not serious questions, and so people feel free to not answer you seriously.

Also, you're not accepting the answers, but are arguing against them.

We don't like that.
Miss Spent Youth
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-02-16 02:44:21 UTC
I truly get that this is a space GAME and some sort of reality need to be suspended but I think some of you are missing what I am driving at.

I think of falloff as like, if I was to throw a rock really hard for a while it would travel strait, it then starts to run out of energy and begin to fall, eventually it travels to a point of no return and gravity ends its forward momentum.
In a space game where there is supposed to be no gravity then if I was to be in my space suit with the same rock I chuck it and it would just keep on going till it hit something. I am not talking about accuracy of tracking simply that the projectile would not stop or become less accurate on its course.

Please try to be respectful in your answers, some in this thread really shouldn't be.
Miss Spent Youth
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-02-16 02:47:03 UTC
Merouk Baas wrote:

No, your questions aren't "perfectly valid," they are complaints that the game is not realistic, disguised as questions. They are not serious questions, and so people feel free to not answer you seriously.

Also, you're not accepting the answers, but are arguing against them.

We don't like that.


You fail at comprehension, I will treat you as you treat others in that case.

Fool
Merouk Baas
#37 - 2013-02-16 02:51:11 UTC
Whatever.

Anyway, yeah that is how the term "falloff" originated, from the trajectory of the projectile. However, it is an aiming and shooting term, and thus it can be adapted for use in a "futuristic" situation where projectiles still miss at a certain range, but not because they drift towards a gravity well.

Much like the term "ship", why do we use the term "ship" to refer to something that has nothing to do with floating on planetary oceans?
Forest Archer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-02-16 04:03:03 UTC
Miss Spent Youth wrote:
I truly get that this is a space GAME and some sort of reality need to be suspended but I think some of you are missing what I am driving at.

I think of falloff as like, if I was to throw a rock really hard for a while it would travel strait, it then starts to run out of energy and begin to fall, eventually it travels to a point of no return and gravity ends its forward momentum.
In a space game where there is supposed to be no gravity then if I was to be in my space suit with the same rock I chuck it and it would just keep on going till it hit something. I am not talking about accuracy of tracking simply that the projectile would not stop or become less accurate on its course.

Please try to be respectful in your answers, some in this thread really shouldn't be.


Actually objects will stop in space and although it is not shown in eve, particles, dust, fragments,and gravity can and will have an effect on bullets. As would a laser disappate, even though this has no effect on your original question.

Anyway cut bass some slack he may be condescending at time he does make a valid attempt to answer people's questions.

Always willing to help all you have to do is ask, though if you're in the other fleet I may not help the way you want. Just a heads up. Pub Channel: Lost Souls Trading Post

Joran Dravius
Doomheim
#39 - 2013-02-16 05:23:45 UTC
Miss Spent Youth wrote:
Can I ask why we have falloff I do not understand how in space you get falloff. You would either hit, or if you tracking was bad , miss. The projectiles or laser beams would keep on going until they hit something. Especially light, it does not bend except under extreme gravity like a black hole or is reflected.
So why have CCP put it in the game. What am I missing, because based on the laws as we know them space combat would not work as it does in this game so there must be some game play reason they have done it.

It's a videogame. Try not to think too hard about it.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#40 - 2013-02-16 05:38:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Crumplecorn
Miss Spent Youth wrote:
I think of falloff as like, if I was to throw a rock really hard for a while it would travel strait, it then starts to run out of energy and begin to fall, eventually it travels to a point of no return and gravity ends its forward momentum.
It's already been pointed out to you that falloff has nothing to do with anything falling.

Do you really find it so hard to believe that a gun has a maximum range where is is accurate, a range where it is completely inaccurate, and a line joining those two points along which accuracy degrades? Because that's how guns are.

No, no you don't. You shouldn't troll in New Citizens you know.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment