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Jump Freighters are overpowered

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Elistea
BLUE Regiment.
#201 - 2011-10-26 14:32:06 UTC
I'd like to add something usefull to this topic...

Let's nerf noobships!!! Why? Because we can!

My point being...

Fail topic....

BS in pure form...
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#202 - 2011-10-26 14:32:21 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Er, no. I said 'jump-capable capital ship' because that is exactly what I meant. The JF is alone as a jump-capable capital ship in its ability to use gates and enter highsec.

You're not seriously suggesting that Black Ops are in any way comparable to JFs (or any other capital) besides their jump drive, are you? It's not like BO BS can be used for logistics (besides bridging blockade runners around, which is neither here nor there).

like the freighter, the battleship can enter highsec and use gates; so too can both of their t2 jump-capable versions

the carrier and dreadnaught are barred from highsec and gates for their combat capability

this is another case of you comparing apples and howitzers

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#203 - 2011-10-26 15:04:49 UTC
Is the Rorqual barred from highsec because of its combat capabilities?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#204 - 2011-10-26 15:09:19 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Is the Rorqual barred from highsec because of its combat capabilities?


there is no good reason for the rorq to be barred from highsec, except ccp's apparent (unfounded) belief it would be a buff to 0.0 mining compared to highsec

given that it is virtually never used for its designed role, one can safely assume ccp's decisions on its design were not great ones

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#205 - 2011-10-26 15:12:04 UTC
I mean the rorq is, essentially, a giant mistake. Virtually every capability it has is unused except its cargohold and jump drive: it is a happy accident that it happens to fit a key logistical role but it's not at all what it was designed for. It was designed by someone who thought you'd siege a 1.5b isk ship in a belt and mine with it.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#206 - 2011-10-26 15:12:26 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Is the Rorqual barred from highsec because of its combat capabilities?


there is no good reason for the rorq to be barred from highsec, except ccp's apparent (unfounded) belief it would be a buff to 0.0 mining compared to highsec

given that it is virtually never used for its designed role, one can safely assume ccp's decisions on its design were not great ones


For once I'll agree with this on this one
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#207 - 2011-10-26 17:10:58 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:
Lots of good discourse since I've been here last.

get back in your hole


Are you mad that people are actively discussing nerfing the ship you use to do your alliance's logistics? I mean, I for one might be a little mad that my gameplay might change and require more effort.

You want your easy-mode logistics to stay the same because you say it's boring. Clearly it is not that boring and soul crushing if you continue to do it. And you reap massive rewards charging your alliancemates for stuff with no risk to your ship ever.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#208 - 2011-10-26 18:33:46 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:
Lots of good discourse since I've been here last.

get back in your hole


Are you mad that people are actively discussing nerfing the ship you use to do your alliance's logistics? I mean, I for one might be a little mad that my gameplay might change and require more effort.

You want your easy-mode logistics to stay the same because you say it's boring. Clearly it is not that boring and soul crushing if you continue to do it. And you reap massive rewards charging your alliancemates for stuff with no risk to your ship ever.

i don't do logistics or importing

i have, however, torpedoed your argument with nary a peep from you besides "u mad" so i feel quite safe in telling you to get back in your hole unless you're willing to put some actual effort in to dealing with my systematic demolition of your argument

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#209 - 2011-10-26 18:35:46 UTC
basically put your argument is so bad and amounts to little more than cutting and pasting arguments valid in other contexts and hoping nobody notices their systematic demolition that you deserve nothing more than contemptuous dismissal

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#210 - 2011-10-26 19:03:18 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
basically put your argument is so bad and amounts to little more than cutting and pasting arguments valid in other contexts and hoping nobody notices their systematic demolition that you deserve nothing more than contemptuous dismissal

Yes, that is a good description of your posts.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#211 - 2011-10-26 19:08:59 UTC
steave435 wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
basically put your argument is so bad and amounts to little more than cutting and pasting arguments valid in other contexts and hoping nobody notices their systematic demolition that you deserve nothing more than contemptuous dismissal

Yes, that is a good description of your posts.

there's really no burn more pathetically limp-wristed than an "i am rubber you are glue" response

go back to kindergarten where that one still works

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#212 - 2011-10-27 16:10:32 UTC
Since you don't bother doing anything other then repeating yourself, ignoring anything you don't agree with, there's no point bothering to put any effort in it.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#213 - 2011-10-27 16:51:53 UTC
i will repeat myself as long as it takes for you to actually address the points I made in my megapost rather than glossing over them and hope that nobody sees them

its here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=219268#post219268

you and centra, because you are pathetically bad posters and pathetically bad at understanding game design, have persisted in sticking your fingers in your ears for pages because it systematically demolishes your whiny useless argument

if you wish to stop being mocked and you would like to be treated like you have anything of value to say, start there

otherwise, continue to cry to mommy and unleashing fearsome "no u" burns

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#214 - 2011-10-27 19:20:44 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."
- Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC

I don't know why people are all riled up about the current super capital changes that CCP Tallest has proposed while ignoring the fundamental problem with EVE Online right now: Jump Freighters

Jump Freighters are the "I win" button of logistics, it's unfair that a Jump Freighter can move so much matériel without a support fleet. I propose this "superfreighter" should be limited in the type of items it can carry, perhaps the ability to carry ships (packaged or unpackaged) should be removed to shift the role of hauling ships back to the carrier.

There currently is no way to move more stuff than a Jump Freighter without using more Jump Freighters or using a Titan and a Freighter, which doesn't have nearly the range. Having to use a Titan in the first place puts a strain on any small alliance wanting to get into nullsec. Jump Freighters are completely unbalanced. And no, "because they cost 5b isk" is not a valid reason for them to be so good.

I'm sure there are better changes that can be made to bring the Jump Freighter back into balance, but the heart of the matter is whoever has more Jump Freighters can move more stuff faster and without a support fleet than any other combination of ship types.

Thank you.



huh?! no. they're not over powered...and it's not an "iwin" jump freightrers have to take risks too..every time they are used.. you spend 5 billion on a ship and them have it "balanced" into oblivion. they are 5 billion because they are better.. and because it cost that much to make them. you have to have a complete regular freighter to sacrifice to the gods of manufacture to create them plus a large bundle of cap parts.. I'm sorry but you are barking up the wrong tree. just what are you thinking you are trying to balance them against anyway? you whole premise is just incorrect.

.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#215 - 2011-10-27 19:26:16 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Er, no. I said 'jump-capable capital ship' because that is exactly what I meant. The JF is alone as a jump-capable capital ship in its ability to use gates and enter highsec.

You're not seriously suggesting that Black Ops are in any way comparable to JFs (or any other capital) besides their jump drive, are you? It's not like BO BS can be used for logistics (besides bridging blockade runners around, which is neither here nor there).



Before jump freighters we used to have to use carriers to jump our supplies in and out of null sec.. CCP nerfed the carriers and gave us the jump freighter to fit that role.. now you would take that away too... lame..

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#216 - 2011-10-27 19:29:45 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Before jump freighters we used to have to use carriers to jump our supplies in and out of null sec.. CCP nerfed the carriers and gave us the jump freighter to fit that role.. now you would take that away too... lame..


Not at all. All I'd do is stop Jump Freighters using stargates.
thrulinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2011-10-27 20:15:49 UTC  |  Edited by: thrulinn
steave435 wrote:
At this point, we have all the data needed to calculate final haul time:
The JF takes 12m 30s per trip, and requires 3 trips, giving a final time of 37m 30s. During these trips, he hauls roughly an extra 100k m3 of random stuff to the destination (an Obelisk can handle exactly 18 BS with its 900k m3 cargo at freighter 4 while an Anshar takes 6 BS per trip with 37.5k m3 left over) and about 1m m3 of moon goo/minerals/loot that the carrier can't carry back to Jita.
The carrier+freighter combo takes 7m 45s to travel trough gates to and from the hub, and it has to do 2 of those trips in order to reset for an another go. That is a total of 15m 30s. On top of that, it has to complete 9 round trips with the carrier to move all the BS, each taking 6 minutes. That is a total of 45 minutes added on top of the previous 15m 30s for a total of 60m 30s. On top of that, he had to take a significant risk bringing his freighter trough a gate to low sec and use a cyno 36 times in short succession compared to the 12 a JF needs, which causes delays when a cyno is killed since you, unlike the JF, don't have an another 13 minutes until you need it again, you only have half that, and during that time you're actively jumping around rather then being stuck in a long warp between gates that you can use to focus on your cyno alts and get them new ships.
As if that wasn't enough, the JF can decrease its round trip time even further, either by using the same method of bringing a freighter to low sec and then jumping from there, meaning it only takes 15m 30s plus 3 round trips of 6m for a total of 18m+15m 30s = 33m 30s.



This post and the one before it Legitimizes why this ship was put in in the first place. To make it easier and less of a hassle to move things, and I can remember when everything took far to much of a effort to do so. I am sure many that have read this wonderful thread remembers it as well.
About your comments about team work and using coordination..
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cynosural_Field_Generator_I
Do you know what this is..End of that argument. unless this ship dose not need one of those.

Regardless of what you think, moving good's will not go back to the way it was before this ship entered the game. It will never be anything more than a T2 Command capital ship. Because that IS what it is.

So what if I am not in a big corp, I do know how to read and do understand the game mechanics.

So please like I said before make a valid point why it should not be here. All you have done is clearly show why it is here.
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#218 - 2011-10-28 21:57:20 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
i have, however, torpedoed your argument with nary a peep from you besides "u mad" so i feel quite safe in telling you to get back in your hole unless you're willing to put some actual effort in to dealing with my systematic demolition of your argument


My trusted sources tell me otherwise.

You said it yourself, logistics is easy.

Nothing in this game should be easy.

Follow us @PLIRC!
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#219 - 2011-10-28 22:37:32 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
i have, however, torpedoed your argument with nary a peep from you besides "u mad" so i feel quite safe in telling you to get back in your hole unless you're willing to put some actual effort in to dealing with my systematic demolition of your argument


My trusted sources tell me otherwise.

You said it yourself, logistics is easy.

Nothing in this game should be easy.

Indeed.
Following trough with Weaseliors argument:
Logistics is sooo booring. We should just be able to have items magically teleported from anywhere to anywhere else instantly for free.
Manufacturing is booring too. Let's have NPCs handle that, add NPC buy orders for ore and sell orders for ships/mods.
Mining is booring, so lets skip the ore buy orders actually. Minerals come from nowhere.
But making isk is booring. Let's have the ships free.
Reinforcing structures is booring. Let's just be able to hit a button to instantly reinforce any structure anywhere from anywhere.
Moving around is booring. Let's add the ability to teleport yourself and your ship anywhere instantly at any time.
Comboduck
The Voices Keep Getting Louder
#220 - 2011-10-29 16:09:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Comboduck
I think that Centra has a valid point.