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Allowed or not Allowed - CCP some guidance?
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Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-02-15 13:56:12 UTC
Thur Barbek wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
The EULA is pretty clear on that:

You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology.


"derive source code" is what that paragraph is about. Unless your telling me cache files are a part of the source code (they are not), that section of the EULA does not apply.


I was replying to the post above mine about network packet sniffing, not the whole thread.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#122 - 2013-02-15 14:05:43 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
The EULA is pretty clear on that:

You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology.

It is not allowed.

It may be hard to see how they can enforce it, but please can we try to stay on topic.

The thread is about the in game legality of one or both of:

1) Using the in-game browser ShowMarketDetails() call to scroll through a set of items in the game
and
2) Reading the resulting EVE cache records using one the many libraries



A law only works as much as you can enforce it. If they start getting so creative with the limitations, I am sure a number of people will come up with more creative counters.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#123 - 2013-02-15 14:10:23 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
This would not fully stop cache sculpting, someone would probably find a way to obtain the encryption key. It would put people using the technique in the same box as people using bots, and i looking at user/client behavior it would probably not be hard to spot the people using it.


It's even easier than that. In a path of least resistance, if cache reading became impossible (very unlikely) then people would just install an hook on the network driver and intercept data packets a la Wireshark and then decode those.


The result is the same, by reading the data of the wire you are also violation the EULA.


I want to see how CCP enforces that. Plenty of software (including packet shapers, stateful firewalls etc) that hook into and analyze network packets. Many people don't even know they have that stuff installed.


If Entity is right about encryption is on client level, then it's not as trivial as deciphering SSL/TLS locally on your computer, non the less it's probably not impossible.

Reloading the market data over and over is probably going to raise some red flags, it's probably easy to detect using statistics. The same going to updating more orders then the average player, they might not be able to detect the software you use, but the does not mean your behavioral patterns can't be detected. In the end they are ban you just for being suspected of violating the EULA.

Some people don't give a **** if they get caught and banned, the majority of the player base don't want to lose the time invested in their character, just to make a little extra isk. If CCP said it was a EULA violation and banable offense to use the cache files most people would stop, and the people who would continue are the same people who are willing to use tool that already are illegal.

CCP Sreegs said he would like to see the market data available using the eve api, and you can already export the same data using the in-game market window. It's not like CCP is saying that the data should not be available, it's more a question of how it's made available.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-02-15 14:21:34 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

1) Using the in-game browser ShowMarketDetails() call to scroll through a set of items in the game
and
2) Reading the resulting EVE cache records using one the many libraries


Reading the cache files : Dev confirming it is okay

Using the IGB to build cache files : GM confirming it is okay

If CCP have changed their view on this subject they should make a public statement, until they do so there is no reason to believe it's not allowed.
Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
#125 - 2013-02-15 14:39:13 UTC
Thur Barbek wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
The EULA is pretty clear on that:

You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology.


"derive source code" is what that paragraph is about. Unless your telling me cache files are a part of the source code (they are not), that section of the EULA does not apply.


We're digressing here, but as far as I can tell, this EULA clause is voided by the European Union's law on reverse engineering, which explicitly allows reverse engineering in some cases (application interoperability). I'm not sure cache files fall under this law though.

However, given that CCP doesn't actually need a reason to deny someone access to their content, it's probably a good idea not to do something they don't want you to do Lol

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Got Item?
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#126 - 2013-02-15 14:43:42 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

1) Using the in-game browser ShowMarketDetails() call to scroll through a set of items in the game
and
2) Reading the resulting EVE cache records using one the many libraries


Reading the cache files : Dev confirming it is okay

Using the IGB to build cache files : GM confirming it is okay

If CCP have changed their view on this subject they should make a public statement, until they do so there is no reason to believe it's not allowed.


Please read the thread.

Recent post from CCP Sreegs, head of the 'department that bans people for being bad', who has the power to overrule GMs, stating that he considers cache reading to be illegal.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601788#post2601788
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-02-15 16:31:18 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

1) Using the in-game browser ShowMarketDetails() call to scroll through a set of items in the game
and
2) Reading the resulting EVE cache records using one the many libraries


Reading the cache files : Dev confirming it is okay

Using the IGB to build cache files : GM confirming it is okay

If CCP have changed their view on this subject they should make a public statement, until they do so there is no reason to believe it's not allowed.


Please read the thread.

Recent post from CCP Sreegs, head of the 'department that bans people for being bad', who has the power to overrule GMs, stating that he considers cache reading to be illegal.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601788#post2601788


Didn't he state that if it were up to him he'd consider cache scraping prohibited? That indicates that he does not make decisions on what makes ban-able offenses or at least some of them.

Don't ban me, bro!
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#128 - 2013-02-15 22:28:41 UTC
I don't understand how this thread is still going.

Screegs said what he thinks. It's different from what some GMs have said. There is obviously a lack of consensus.

It boils down to who you think is going to win: Screegs or GMs.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#129 - 2013-02-15 23:53:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
Obviously there is a lack of consensus.

That's why the thread exists.

I was hoping to extract a consensus opinion from CCP.

Perhaps we should just be content with guessing whether what we do is allowed or not.

How professional.