These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Threshold for ganking a Freighter should be higher? Discuss
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#101 - 2013-02-15 06:13:07 UTC
Crystara wrote:
Mark Munoz wrote:

The core thing here is cooperation. Freighters are ungankable by any other single player while trucking through hisec. It takes literally a team of people to stop you. So it is only fair it should also take a freighter a team of people to counter the gankers.



I, too, want an 8-men escort fleet for all my freighters at all times.

Recruiting now.
Be prepared to travel...a lot.

Awoxers are welcome.

If thats too much effort for you then just fly solo
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#102 - 2013-02-15 06:19:48 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Core Researcher wrote:

you cant have it both ways: either its teams and thats how the game works, or its not teams, in which case arguments stating freighter should have an escort are flawed at best.

You do know that most people have figured out how to solo fly freighters in high sec. Its the complicated tactic of not putting ten billion in the hold.

You could split 10 billion into a team of 10 and be safe.

But wait, you could.. MULTIBOX FREIGHTERSSSSSSS


Alternatively, couln't you fly 1 freighter with 10 billion and 9 blackbirds (or falcons if you have the sp for that) and be pretty safe?


Wrong maths. The more you carry the more people can fail and still win more when they win. ie 2 failed ganks followed by a successful gank has a better notional payout than 4 reliable ganks on 2.5bil targets, loot fairy issues aside.

Also 10 pilots could be making ~200mil - 1 bil/hr shooting red crosses, so the opportunity cost whilst escorting is huge.
Mc Scam
Doomheim
#103 - 2013-02-15 08:06:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mc Scam
OPs original post only takes into account the cost of the gankfleet and completely ignores the additional cost that comes in form of popped pods, killrights, ppl popping the pirate freighter and the sec grind to not be shot everywhere in highsec. Furthermore it adds the cargo into calculations which makes no sense(minimum comparative cost to the freigher pilot is 0 cargo not 1B*, the 1B* treshold would increase everytime the gankfleet cost goes up, means OPs math is massively broken).

If the point of this threat is to completely equalize the loss of the freighter pilot with the one of the gankers including cargo, then you ask for ganking to be completely unprofitable at ALL levels(pirates need to be able to make up for the loss and make a profit otherwise ganking becomes pure griefing which is forbidden in the EULA). If we don't take the cargo into calculations but add kr, possible pods and piratefreighter loss then the cost is already ~equal. (All this is the reason why 1B* is considered safe)


Edit: *According to OP, these numbers were pre retribuition and only if one flew through 0.5 systems
SniffleBum KissyLips
EVE INDUSTIAL MINING TRINITY GOLD MINER CORP INC.
#104 - 2013-02-15 08:19:08 UTC  |  Edited by: SniffleBum KissyLips
1 bil 1 bil 1 bil, Where did you come up with this silly 1bil number?

Even 2.5bil is relatively safe, it's when you get to 3bil+ in loot, that you are starting to push your luck. If you don't believe me, look through the records of ganked freighters in highsec. It's rare that it's even below 5 bil lately. Not to mention, that there is so much risk involved for the gankers, and difficulty of safely retrieving the loot, that even goonswarm isn't ganking hardly any freighters lately. Or at least, last time I checked.

You have to remember, if the gankers fleet costs 1bil, (which is a bit lowball, I'd say 1.4, 1.5 for a proper talos fleet, or arty tornados),

There is only a 50% chance for loot to drop. Thus, to have a statistically good chance to BREAK EVEN, the freighter has to be carrying minimum 2billion isk worth of loot. 3 billion if you go based on realistic ganker fleet cost.

Now, take into account that they are doing it for profit, not purely for the killmail, or tears. If that was the case, they would just get 40 people together in catalysts more often, and gank freighters empty or not.

Thus, continuing with our 50% drop chance, each billion in loot, is only 500 mil dropped, on average. So with 10 people in Talos', with the fleet being worth about 1.3bil, a freighter carrying 3billion isk worth of loot, would on average drop 1.5billion, providing 200million isk to be split amongst those ten people. 20 million each is NOT worth the effort of sitting around waiting for a good target, then the security loss, killrights, and potential risk involved for the freighter. At least 5bil is really required, for it to be worth people's while. Which ironically, corresponds with ganking values these days...


EDIT: Last goonswarm freighter gank, 12 days ago; http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16220188

Fleet suicided was cheaper than what I quoted, but they still went after a target worth 5bil.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#105 - 2013-02-15 08:34:12 UTC
I find it hilarious that despite CCP substantially increasing the risk involved in freighter ganking, wretched whining babbies still think freighter ganking is ~out of control~ despite the fact that freighter ganks are nowhere near as common as they were before.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#106 - 2013-02-15 08:34:41 UTC
It's out of control because at least one freighter gets ganked in hisec every week!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2013-02-15 08:57:16 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:

Alternatively, couln't you fly 1 freighter with 10 billion and 9 blackbirds (or falcons if you have the sp for that) and be pretty safe?
why 9? anything less then 100% the damage needed to pop a freighter before concord wipes the gankers means the freighter is saved
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#108 - 2013-02-15 08:58:01 UTC
As owner of 3 freighters and 1 JF I am against any freighter buff.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Jaden Li
Doomheim
#109 - 2013-02-15 09:48:34 UTC
Does kinda render freighters a bit limited at the moment. All that space and you can't even (safely) make use of it all in most cases.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#110 - 2013-02-15 10:22:19 UTC
Jaden Li wrote:
Does kinda render freighters a bit limited at the moment. All that space and you can't even (safely) make use of it all in most cases.


yeah it's a real shame that you can't fill a charon to the brim with t2 components, datacores, faction/officer mods and everything else you've ever owned and autopilot to jita

CCP lied and said that this cold, harsh game was supposed to be about autopiloting your life's worth into the most populated system in the game

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Whitehound
#111 - 2013-02-15 10:29:01 UTC
Jaden Li wrote:
Does kinda render freighters a bit limited at the moment. All that space and you can't even (safely) make use of it all in most cases.

A cargo load of Tritanium is about 500m-600m ISKs in value. Tritanium is in constant need all over New Eden. The best thing about Tritanium for a freighter pilot is that it can be used as a filling material. If you need any cheaper fillers look for processed PI materials.

Just please do not argue about not being able to use all that space when really you only want to load up with expensive modules and rare materials.

You cherry-pick your load... and gankers will cherry-pick you!

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Jaden Li
Doomheim
#112 - 2013-02-15 10:52:16 UTC
Whitehound - I stand corrected, thanks.

To the Goon above, don't be so vesecious, I never said it should be filled with the lowest density/highest values one could possibly find and moved on autopilot.

Just for most every day loads, I usually find mine mostly empty through fear of overloading it. Guess I'm doing it wrong.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#113 - 2013-02-15 11:16:33 UTC
Jaden Li wrote:
Whitehound - I stand corrected, thanks.

To the Goon above, don't be so vesecious, I never said it should be filled with the lowest density/highest values one could possibly find and moved on autopilot.

Just for most every day loads, I usually find mine mostly empty through fear of overloading it. Guess I'm doing it wrong.

So use an orca.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#114 - 2013-02-15 14:06:52 UTC
"Vesecious?" Do you mean vicious?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jaden Li
Doomheim
#115 - 2013-02-15 14:12:37 UTC
'Facetious' is what I actually meant.
Naevea Sar'Daen
Explosive When Microwaved
#116 - 2013-05-15 07:48:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Naevea Sar'Daen
Mark Munoz wrote:
Core Researcher wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Core Researcher wrote:
In the particular case of suicide ganking it DOES matter the comparative costs of the ships.


What you're suggesting is that the entire game be bent around the issue of suicide ganking. You want freighters to be harder for EVERYONE to kill, because they might be ganked. Alternatively, you want to make popular gank ships more expensive--or freigheters less expensive--in order to rectify this perceived imbalance.

Core Researcher wrote:
You know how I know this?

Mining barges.


it would take a LOT of catalysts to equal the value of a hulk. Far more than are required to gank one. You just lost the debate for yourself, well done.


ill bite.

If you are at war and u catch a freighter would double the EHP matter? triple?
You catch it in low sec, null sec, wormhole space, would it really matter?

You are zeroing in on the "make this more expensive" or "this less expensive" aspect.

What is really being debated here is an increase in EHP for a freighter, not an increase in cost for anything. The OP didnt make that clear but we're all clever dudes here in EvE right?

I dont see your point on the Hulk either tbh?

Hulks were cheap to gank. Mining barges were buffed and players were given an option of tank or yield. So now it takes many more SUICIDE GANKERS to kill a tanked mining ship.

So what was your point exactly and how did i lose any debate?


If I could speak for him I think he is referring to the fact that even the most tanked hulk can be ganked with less than 60 million in ships. The people ganking freighters are also SUICIDE GANKERS so I am not sure what your point in emphasizing that is.

Essentially what he is saying is you gave the example of the exhumer buff to show how CCP agrees with you. He is saying they don't as people are still ganking tanked exhumers all day long and for a fraction of the cost of the exhumer. The only explanation I can think of for your logic is making TANKED exhumer ganking no longer a solo activity. Again though nobody is solo-ganking any freighters so either way your logic is flawed.

The core thing here is cooperation. Freighters are ungankable by any other single player while trucking through hisec. It takes literally a team of people to stop you. So it is only fair it should also take a freighter a team of people to counter the gankers.

I think lots of players of this game forget that CCP's goal with this game was to make it as close to real life as possible. Do you see Banks security trucks running around town with just a driver picking up and dropping off loot? If you are under consideration for a gank in your freighter you are hauling enough to warrant a team, otherwise you are indeed just a lowly trucker that will likely have a very uneventful day. Use the brain-tank.

Freighters are more like semi-trucks full of product, not security guards with even minimal training, a defense tool (be it taser/firearm) and possibly (i don't know for sure, im betting for bigger banks maybe) body armor of some kind. many truckers ARE solo, and you rarely hear ont he news "well a semi-driver was ganked today by 8 roadside pirates using spikestrips, assault rifles and a small tank but its ok because police forces in the area showed up 15 seconds later and shot them all int he head (even the tank bro)"

Personally, I think freighters should be immune to warp scramble and webs (not that those are needed) because it already takes them 4 weeks to warp. Also rigs and low slots because im sorry, its a SPACESHIP not a rock.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#117 - 2013-05-15 08:10:23 UTC
Core Researcher wrote:
hi,

I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.

Looking at it for a freighter pilor's point of view:



I'm a freighter pilot and I've also participated in ganking one or two over the years.

My perspective is this:

Freighters should have some flexible fitting options like other haulers do.

Why? For the very reason you posted.

You can calculate whether or not you can kill a freighter and whether or not it's going to be (on average) profitable to do so on a calculator. This discussion proves that.

The best example of this that I can think of was during burn Jita when one of Goons FC's literally worked out on a calculator how many T1 frigates of a certain type it would take to kill a freighter. He then got a fleet together, everyone fit up what he wanted and they went out and proved that his calculation was right. The thing was done on paper, not in EVE.

I think that's wrong.

Giving freighters some flexible fitting options will create a variable in the equation.

Havihng a couple of low-slots and a couple of rig slots would allow freighter pilots to choose between different priorities, for example:

- more EHP (hull modules and/or trimarks and other armor mods) vs slower aligning and less cargo space
- more cargo room at the expense of EHP
- faster aligning (inertia stabs) at the expense of other priorities.

You could even put a warp core stab on it although most freighter pilots would know that it won't help... but still....

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#118 - 2013-05-15 08:28:55 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Core Researcher wrote:
hi,

I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.

Looking at it for a freighter pilor's point of view:



I'm a freighter pilot and I've also participated in ganking one or two over the years.

My perspective is this:

Freighters should have some flexible fitting options like other haulers do.

Why? For the very reason you posted.

You can calculate whether or not you can kill a freighter and whether or not it's going to be (on average) profitable to do so on a calculator. This discussion proves that.

The best example of this that I can think of was during burn Jita when one of Goons FC's literally worked out on a calculator how many T1 frigates of a certain type it would take to kill a freighter. He then got a fleet together, everyone fit up what he wanted and they went out and proved that his calculation was right. The thing was done on paper, not in EVE.

I think that's wrong.

Giving freighters some flexible fitting options will create a variable in the equation.

Havihng a couple of low-slots and a couple of rig slots would allow freighter pilots to choose between different priorities, for example:

- more EHP (hull modules and/or trimarks and other armor mods) vs slower aligning and less cargo space
- more cargo room at the expense of EHP
- faster aligning (inertia stabs) at the expense of other priorities.

You could even put a warp core stab on it although most freighter pilots would know that it won't help... but still....



Freighters cargo capacity would have to be nerfed if you want to add slots to it. I dont want a worse ship because some people think CCP can fix stupid.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#119 - 2013-05-15 08:33:11 UTC
The packaged M3 for Carriers and Dread's are not really a valued number in the game. No ship can carry them when they are packaged and they will never be undocked in that state. They come in at 1,000,000 M3 packaged. If that number were pushed up to 2 mill or even 5 it wouldn't matter one way or the other in terms of how they are handled in the game. It is the only reason freighters do not have rig slots or a single low slot.

If the numbers on packaged capitals were jacked up CCP could add a single low slot and or Rig slots to the freighters as well as the Jump Freighters. If someone wants to crank up their hold, let them. For those with more brains than a big dog, they could multiply the EHP of the ship and improve Inertia. Goonswarm or more specific, Bat Co seem to think EVE players is too dumb ta do it right anyway, they will still gett heir stupid kills and people like me would no longer feel any pity for them because they made a decision. Right now, it's nothing but a cow in space, in a game everyone seems to agree is full of wolves.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#120 - 2013-05-15 08:36:40 UTC
Hisec, creating tears, problems and hatred since inception.

I think it's time accept the fact that nothing good will ever come out of it and simply reduce it into handful of systems to protect the new players, and let players take care of the rest.



.