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Allowed or not Allowed - CCP some guidance?
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Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-02-14 00:55:27 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

People are using this method everywhere to update spreadsheets, buy/sell orders, etc



See this is where I think we run into some semantic trouble.

Are you talking about updating buy/sell orders in your spreadsheets? Because this would seem like a reasonable thing for traders to do. There are numerous third party utilities out there that do this sort of thing and many of them have been around for years.

Or are you talking about modifying those orders in-game. Because that is a whole different kettle of fish if you ask me.

Incidentally...

I haven't read all the tons of incredibly long threads about the EVE Uni guy. Frankly I don't have that kind of time. But in the quotes I've seen from them someone was talking about the guy who was banned "updating market orders" quickly using some sort of software. So I'm curious if that meant he was updating his out-of-game tools or was in updating in-game actual market orders?

A lot of people see the 300bil isk and automatically assume that the guy was botting. This is not a good assumption. Any serious market trader will tell you that is not at all an unreasonable sum of isk for him to have. If you don't believe me check out greedygoblin.blogspot.com. (Daft as he may be, Gevlon has shown that it's not that hard to make billions trading.)

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
#42 - 2013-02-14 01:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Entity
Re. cache scraping:

1. Explicit permission is explicit

2. Back then I sent my cache decoder library Reverence (shameless plug) for review and release approval to CCP. They approved it, or it wouldn't have been released. Heck, the whole project is quite cheeky about it ;)

3. Sreegs merely stated his opinion. I don't think he should have stated this opinion because of the whole leaving-the-third-party-developer-community-in-uncertainty factor, but it is merely an opinion regardless. A moot opinion at this point in time.

In case they want to "stop" (uhuh) people from reading the cache, CCP's options are extremely limited. I could go in depth as to why it is impossible to prevent access to the cache files, but anyone with an interest in this activity knows why so I won't bother.

Another point is, that an outlawing of cache decoding would do nothing to stop people abusing it, but would severely cripple 3rd party developers that play by the rules.

So, in short, I don't think there's anything to worry about.
If CCP backpedals on points #2 and #1 above, they're 5 years too late. The technology is already out there seeing widespread use, and permission was already granted (sure, could be revoked, but again, what is the point?).

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

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Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-02-14 01:09:16 UTC
Entity wrote:
Re. cache scraping:

1. Explicit permission is explicit



2008 forum post is from 2008.


Heck, that was back in the BoB days. Now goons are running everything...
(sorry I had to...)

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
#44 - 2013-02-14 01:13:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Entity
Sid Hudgens wrote:
Entity wrote:
Re. cache scraping:

1. Explicit permission is explicit



2008 forum post is from 2008.


Heck, that was back in the BoB days. Now goons are running everything...
(sorry I had to...)


Sure it's an old post.
But it would be absolutely ridiculous to expect us to ask CCP if previously-explicitly-permitted-activity-X is still permitted everytime an issue comes up related to it.

If they had changed their mind, the least I would expect is a blog/news item stating the change in policy, especially on something so crucial for many 3rd party developers.

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#45 - 2013-02-14 01:24:42 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Okay, so if you're on linux and you set turn off a specific setting for a specific file or if you're on win7 and have never needed to know when a file was created, accessed, or modified then it's possible to open a file without altering the metadata.

Fair enough. But I call those edge cases. Not something so common that you can interpret the terms of an EULA assuming those circumstances.


You can open files on any POSIX and even MS DOS compatible file system upwards without altering anything including metadata, with a simple C call...

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
#46 - 2013-02-14 01:30:48 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Glathull wrote:
Okay, so if you're on linux and you set turn off a specific setting for a specific file or if you're on win7 and have never needed to know when a file was created, accessed, or modified then it's possible to open a file without altering the metadata.

Fair enough. But I call those edge cases. Not something so common that you can interpret the terms of an EULA assuming those circumstances.


You can open files on any POSIX and even MS DOS compatible file system upwards without altering anything including metadata, with a simple C call...


I'm going to go with "so what if metadata is modified?", as there is no way to identify WHAT accessed it.

I'd also find it hilarious if people would get banned over datestamps on files (and I'm pretty sure any antivirus worth a damn would be opening those files anyway). The whole notion of banning the reading of content on your own filesystem is so ridiculously absurd, I'm not sure why we're even discussing it.

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

Got Item?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#47 - 2013-02-14 01:38:26 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
NEONOVUS wrote:
So what if I copy the data into a different directory then scrape it?
Or even better what if I play EVE once on a hdd then switch to another EVE client and use that on a separate hdd, reformatting and reinstalling EVE between each switch?
Or worse setup a raid backup then use the data written to the backup and thus never touch the game cache that is used in the first place?


Once CCP declares the cache off limits, this behavior will get you banned. Use the API like you're supposed to.

-Liang


The API can't even vaguely support the amount of constant throughput it's needed to do that job.
They need to implement a real time mail slot protocol and considering how long they take to implement the hugely simpler REST, you'd see something coming out by 2030.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#48 - 2013-02-14 01:43:15 UTC
Sid Hudgens wrote:
Entity wrote:
Re. cache scraping:

1. Explicit permission is explicit



2008 forum post is from 2008.


Heck, that was back in the BoB days. Now goons are running everything...
(sorry I had to...)


Let's assume for a moment that CCP declares cache scraping forbidden and encrypt the cache data files.

I estimate it'll take 2 weeks tops before someone they will never find, will have those files opened like cheap pomatoes cans and posted the whole universe about how to do it.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#49 - 2013-02-14 01:44:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Entity wrote:

I'm going to go with "so what if metadata is modified?", as there is no way to identify WHAT accessed it.


This is possible on past WinNT Win based OSes, but so asinine that would probably end on every game design website and e-zine and ridiculed to tears.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Hannah Flex
#50 - 2013-02-14 01:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannah Flex
.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#51 - 2013-02-14 01:49:55 UTC
Entity wrote:
But it would be absolutely ridiculous to expect us to ask CCP if previously-explicitly-permitted-activity-X is still permitted everytime an issue comes up related to it.

If they had changed their mind, the least I would expect is a blog/news item stating the change in policy, especially on something so crucial for many 3rd party developers.

Given that we saw a thread titled "Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)" clearly the intent is to cause some type of hysteria, mass paranoia, or perhaps educate us on the realities of a ---

Anyway, EVE is real.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
#52 - 2013-02-14 01:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Entity
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

I estimate it'll take 2 weeks tops before someone they will never find, will have those files opened like cheap pomatoes cans and posted the whole universe about how to do it.


I'd be disappointed if it took 2 weeks. 2 days is more realistic.

Either way, encrypting cache is one option. Another option is to just not put stuff in cache they don't want scraped, for the same reason they shouldn't put static data on test servers they don't want people to speculate on.

At any rate, I believe CCP employees should be more careful about the statements they make. Someone like Sreegs who commands a fairly large amount of authority on matters such as these should at least formulate opinions in a way it looks less like a threat of imminent banning.

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

Got Item?
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#53 - 2013-02-14 01:53:58 UTC
Hey Entity, let me borrow your State Issue Raven.

Thxs

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#54 - 2013-02-14 01:55:57 UTC
Entity wrote:
At any rate, I believe CCP employees should be more careful about the statements they make. Someone like Sreegs who commands a fairly large amount of authority on matters such as these should at least formulate opinions in a way it looks less like a threat of imminent banning.

Aha, but you see, according to the perfectly rational and clearminded people on EVEO, that is the point of it.

Be scared, EVE is so real, you'll get purged from it,

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2013-02-14 01:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: NEONOVUS
Hannah Flex wrote:
Would you turds quit hacking the market and compete like everyone else has to?? Update your orders by hand ffs

We are.
This is the equivalent of Google search for a term paper as opposed to library with a card catalog.

Also does anything happen if we give you items entity?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#56 - 2013-02-14 02:15:18 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
Hannah Flex wrote:
Would you turds quit hacking the market and compete like everyone else has to?? Update your orders by hand ffs

We are.
This is the equivalent of Google search for a term paper as opposed to library with a card catalog.

Also does anything happen if we give you items entity?

Accelerating Entity's gameplay huh. You trying to get them in trouble? Naughty ~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#57 - 2013-02-14 03:45:04 UTC
Why can't you guys play normally using the normal eve client instead of esternal tool to **** other players?

Please, could you at least spare us all this semantics dances and phylosofical speculations on what have to be considerated legal from a modern relativism point of view and bla bla bla? People is not stupid, we are all experienced gamers and we perfectly understand wha you do.

You are simply like little kids playing Monopoly and cheatting the dice rolls to steal some fake game currency, only this.

Just sit at your desktop and play the damned game as everyone else.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#58 - 2013-02-14 03:57:04 UTC
Entity wrote:
Re. cache scraping:

1. Explicit permission is explicit

2. Back then I sent my cache decoder library Reverence (shameless plug) for review and release approval to CCP. They approved it, or it wouldn't have been released. Heck, the whole project is quite cheeky about it ;)

3. Sreegs merely stated his opinion. I don't think he should have stated this opinion because of the whole leaving-the-third-party-developer-community-in-uncertainty factor, but it is merely an opinion regardless. A moot opinion at this point in time.

In case they want to "stop" (uhuh) people from reading the cache, CCP's options are extremely limited. I could go in depth as to why it is impossible to prevent access to the cache files, but anyone with an interest in this activity knows why so I won't bother.

Another point is, that an outlawing of cache decoding would do nothing to stop people abusing it, but would severely cripple 3rd party developers that play by the rules.

So, in short, I don't think there's anything to worry about.
If CCP backpedals on points #2 and #1 above, they're 5 years too late. The technology is already out there seeing widespread use, and permission was already granted (sure, could be revoked, but again, what is the point?).


You would not be crippled if he replicated the allowed functionality in an API. From there it becomes reasonable to ban access to the cache. It's still readable and modifiable and botting and spoofing your client and all the usual **** is still possible. But at that point there's no grey area. There's use the API or get banned.

And that, my friend, is a much better place to be in.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#59 - 2013-02-14 03:58:15 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
NEONOVUS wrote:
So what if I copy the data into a different directory then scrape it?
Or even better what if I play EVE once on a hdd then switch to another EVE client and use that on a separate hdd, reformatting and reinstalling EVE between each switch?
Or worse setup a raid backup then use the data written to the backup and thus never touch the game cache that is used in the first place?


Once CCP declares the cache off limits, this behavior will get you banned. Use the API like you're supposed to.

-Liang


The API can't even vaguely support the amount of constant throughput it's needed to do that job.
They need to implement a real time mail slot protocol and considering how long they take to implement the hugely simpler REST, you'd see something coming out by 2030.


So you're saying you might have to actually write intelligent programs to manage your usage of the API? So you're saying you might have to manually update things or manually do some work like the majority of "unenhanced" Eve players?

Cry me a ******* river.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-02-14 04:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Hudgens
You know what you guys are right. I'm sick of you cheating fucks using external programs.

You know who pisses me off more than these cheating traders who can't just be happy with the EVE client? All you cheating bitches out there using EFT. And don't even get me started on Pyfa and EVEMon. I bet some of you even export fits and from these hacker tools and import them into the eve client. ******* botters. I want you all banned.

Only unenhanced eve players from now on.

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."