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Should ORE have their own dedicated hauler ships?

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Kathern Aurilen
#1 - 2013-02-13 23:04:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kathern Aurilen
I was nosing around in another thread(THAT SHALL NOT BE NAMED!!) that was discussing the up coming skill change for for the Orca, and this got me thinking.
stoicfaux wrote:
Too bad all this energy/trolling wasn't directed into convincing CCP to provide a non-miner version of the Orca, i.e. an Orca variant that focused on hauling/mobile base attributes. Especially given how popular/useful/practical the standard Orca is.
I like the idea of a dedicated sub freighter hauler outside the race indy tech trees(i get tired of looking a the epeen shape of the gellente indy ships). Maybe call it the walrus.

Maybe ORE should go into the shipping and hauling ship market... Keep the orca as industrial command like the T2 command command BC and BS versions and just have a T1 hauler version.

I don't think 25% orcas out there are being used for their intended purpose, hauling ore, maybe half making the ore bay completely useless.

No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
Kate stark
#2 - 2013-02-13 23:06:00 UTC
i'll just throw this opinion out there; no.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Whitehound
#3 - 2013-02-13 23:06:39 UTC
Too bad you had the wrong idea regarding where to post this as this is not Features & Ideas Discussion.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#4 - 2013-02-13 23:10:08 UTC
I've often thought that the Orca tries to be all things to all people: huge carrying capacity, tractor beam bonus, command bonus, fleet hangar, ship maintenance bay, survey scanner range bonus. This is too much responsibility to put in one hull.

I see at least three ships in the repertoire: a covops frigate with the survey scanner bonus, a command ship sized command ship with the command bonus, tractor bonus & fleet hangar, and a hauler with the carrying capacity & ship maintenance bay.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#5 - 2013-02-13 23:10:40 UTC
If we're lucky the Orca will get (re)purposed into a proper mining support vessel, as it was originally intended, when tiericide hits it. 200K ore bay, 5K cargo and 5K fleet bay, SMA holds only mining vessels... Then maybe CCP can think about expanding the Industrial Command Ships line.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#6 - 2013-02-13 23:19:04 UTC
Hauling orca with less ehp than an itty1, can carry all sorts of delicious loots, make skills low and hull cost low so any ****** can fly one. I want this. Catalysts and thrashers at the ready boys...

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#7 - 2013-02-13 23:19:51 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
If we're lucky the Orca will get (re)purposed into a proper mining support vessel, as it was originally intended, when tiericide hits it. 200K ore bay, 5K cargo and 5K fleet bay, SMA holds only mining vessels... Then maybe CCP can think about expanding the Industrial Command Ships line.



Yeah, umm, if they do that, there are going to be a whole lot more people a whole lot more pissed off than there currently are with the skill change. Make a month of training time useless to me? Okay, I don't agree with it, but I'm not really all that upset about it, and I can understand that there is no really good alternative.

Make the entire ship itself useless to me? Presumably without offering a replacement?

Yeah, I'll be a lot more angry about that. Not that anyone will care. I'll just be one of thousands of raging voices drunk/angry posting here.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Kathern Aurilen
#8 - 2013-02-13 23:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kathern Aurilen
Mara Rinn wrote:
I've often thought that the Orca tries to be all things to all people: huge carrying capacity, tractor beam bonus, command bonus, fleet hangar, ship maintenance bay, survey scanner range bonus. This is too much responsibility to put in one hull.

I see at least three ships in the repertoire: a covops frigate with the survey scanner bonus, a command ship sized command ship with the command bonus, tractor bonus & fleet hangar, and a hauler with the carrying capacity & ship maintenance bay.
Thats true huh. It might as well have a dedicated non removable probe launcher(that doesn't block the actual mod slots) with a level skill to scanning only grav sites down.. Got everything else!!

Be swiss army knife in space

No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#9 - 2013-02-13 23:27:42 UTC
Moving this from General Discussion to Features and Ideas.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#10 - 2013-02-13 23:32:41 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
I've often thought that the Orca tries to be all things to all people: huge carrying capacity, tractor beam bonus, command bonus, fleet hangar, ship maintenance bay, survey scanner range bonus. This is too much responsibility to put in one hull.

I see at least three ships in the repertoire: a covops frigate with the survey scanner bonus, a command ship sized command ship with the command bonus, tractor bonus & fleet hangar, and a hauler with the carrying capacity & ship maintenance bay.


I don't necessarily think we have to break it down into 3 different hulls.

Why not just make it do what I want it to? Twisted

Huge capacity, fleet hangar, ship maintenance bay. This is the way almost everyone in the game (read: me, and me only) is using the hull.

Sarcasm aside, I think there's a little bit of truth to that, which is why we are seeing the skill changes. The skill changes clearly reflect the way people are using the ship. They aren't using it as a mining command ship. They are using it for general logistics.

The orca is a miniature carrier that you can use in high sec space. I really don't care about the bonuses it currently has. I only care about its basic functionality.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#11 - 2013-02-14 00:16:31 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Yeah, I'll be a lot more angry about that. Not that anyone will care. I'll just be one of thousands of raging voices drunk/angry posting here.

Yeah, it'd be pretty hilarious.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Kathern Aurilen
#12 - 2013-02-14 01:01:39 UTC
I was thinking. whats sorts of different orca models should there be?

A sub capital Carrier with fleet command bonuses and a fitting service

a sub capital freighter with the ore bay removed and the bay cargo bay expanded.

even a sub short range jump freighter

and a adjustment to the mining orca to shrink the other bays and expand the ore bay(basically equal out to the same total)

No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#13 - 2013-02-14 06:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
ORE does need more ships to fill out its skill trees and to cover gaps in demand unfilled thus far.

A dedicated Heavy Gas Miner - I suggest cruiser size.

A Heavy Industrial - to move around 70km3 to 80km3 of cargo. Larger than the current racial industrials, it would be in its own class. That being said, it would be reasonable to also make this a racial class, as a stepping stone from Indy to Freighter.

A dedicated Ore Mover - able to move around 200km3 to 250km3 of ore, gas and ice.

...and I have also suggested a ship to act as a larger mobile base, able to move a fitted BS or half a dozen cruisers with negligable cargo bay and a smallish corp hanger. A fleet support ship as it were, for small gangs and nomadic groups.
I'm not 100% on the idea any more but I would welcome opinions.

EDIT:
I forgot to mention that suggestions of other corps like InterBus and The Syndicate could combine forces with ORE to make interesting ships as well, maybe as T2 variants.

Friends
Sunai Karvinoinas
#14 - 2013-02-14 11:46:08 UTC
To answer the provided question in topic: Absolutely yes. +1


The racial skill path to subcapitals has been suggested by CCP-Dev as following:
Racial Frigate IV - Racial Industrial III + Advanced Ship Command V - Freighter I (maybe other skills will be needed too. So these will be kept for other freighter-like skill pathes in same way.)

So I see an ORE Capital Industrial skill to enter an Orca and further freighters/industrial subcapitals
ORE Frigate (called "Mining Frigate" yet) IV - ORE Industrial III + Advanced Ship Command V - ORE Capital Industrial I

If you need fleet bonus or gang link activation, you may train other skills too. So the skill "Command Ship" may be necessary to use an Orca as industrial command ship but should not longer bound to the "Battlecruiser V" skill but to "Advanced Spaceship Command I" instead. No skill "ORE Industrial Command Ships" would be necessary anymore.
This mean reducing skill needs to use the Orca as hauler/freighter. Rebalance cargo/ore bay to more subcapital status and matching multiple Retriever/Mackinaw ore capacity.
Changes could be:
- reduce common cargo to 15k m³
- raise ore cargo to 250k m³
- mining barge skill could provide bonus to ore cargo bay, racial industrial skills may give bonus to common cargo bay but will not be needed to enter this subcapital ship
- introduce larger subcapital industrials for higher skill levels (modular or specialized)

Rorqal could become a Tech2 ORE Capital Industrial replacing some of the presently needed skills and raising the "ORE Capital Industrial" skill need to 5.

ORE Industrial Skillpath might be extended with production, refining, compressing and other skills to allow industrial modules/subsystems. ORE Industrial III and ORE Subsystems (Electronics V, Electronics Upgrades X, and so on) should be needed to enter a "modular industrial ship".
You can customize the ship to match special needs for working at WH-sites, PI or other industrial issues, for producing goods, hauling ships or research. The slots to place subsystems is very limited. CPU and power also. So you have to decide what profession the ship will assist most. Moreover you can refit for additional needs.
T2 versions of it might be more comfortable to fit but heavily more expensive. To enter a Tech2-path "ORE Industrial V" would be necessary beside several higher special skills for module/subsystem fittings.

ORE Industrial II and a trailer skill may allow a tug boat. It can pickup and carry freight containers of different cargo types and capacities. Watching the "Venture" gave me an impression how it could look.

ORE Industrial IV/V can provide an entry to come into T2-haulers and/or a really huge ore bulk hauler. These could be completely new designs or Gallente Industrial faction types.

An ORE Cargo skill could allow refitting racial industrials to ore haulers.

"ORE Frigate V" opens the path to T2 mining frigates, what could match the needs of 0-Sec gas miners and gets cruiser stated shield and hull. In my opinion it's the better solution than introducing an ORE Cruiser skill. This needs only a little more time than train for cruisers.

--

Slightly off-topic: Other NPC factions could co-operate with ORE in order to provide more profession matching haulers. Looking at "Syndicate Zephyr" will give an impression of what profession specifications could be. These ships might be faction types of racial industrial or a subordinated part of ORE = non-racial industrial skillpath.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#15 - 2013-02-14 12:45:12 UTC
Probably should just make an Industrial Command ship without calling it that or requireing the Command Ships skill, Or else you guys are gonna get stuck with Armored/Siege/Skirmish/Information Warfare V. It's cool if you want them, but I personally see no reason to train the combat links for an industrial ship.

If you are looking for a smaller, cheaper hull for the foreman links, I'd think any Battlecruiser would do, and a Battlecruiser class ORE ship could possibly just get 3% Forman links and the ability to mount 3 links as one of it's regular hull bonuses, maybe the second bonus could be Cargo Bay size, Drone Damage/HP/Mining Yeild, or Tractor range/speed.
Sunai Karvinoinas
#16 - 2013-02-14 14:08:42 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Probably should just make an Industrial Command ship without calling it that or requireing the Command Ships skill, Or else you guys are gonna get stuck with Armored/Siege/Skirmish/Information Warfare V. It's cool if you want them, but I personally see no reason to train the combat links for an industrial ship.
Well, I see some need to reassign skill needs. "Warfare Link Specialist" should not be needed to train "Command Ship". This could be replaced for instance by "Advanced Ship Command".
Every new skill path will awake desires to get more than 1 ship for the skill path. In my humble opinion it would be better to merge skills instead of dividing them into more and more poor skill pathes.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
If you are looking for a smaller, cheaper hull for the foreman links, I'd think any Battlecruiser would do, and a Battlecruiser class ORE ship could possibly just get 3% Forman links and the ability to mount 3 links as one of it's regular hull bonuses, maybe the second bonus could be Cargo Bay size, Drone Damage/HP/Mining Yeild, or Tractor range/speed.
It was an example only. I'm not interested in a dedicated mining command ship personally.
Kathern Aurilen
#17 - 2013-02-14 21:49:01 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
...and I have also suggested a ship to act as a larger mobile base, able to move a fitted BS or half a dozen cruisers with negligable cargo bay and a smallish corp hanger. A fleet support ship as it were, for small gangs and nomadic groups.
I'm not 100% on the idea any more but I would welcome opinions.
I like the idea of a sub capital small ship carrier with gang support. "BUT" if your off grid boosting a gang of gankers... Don't u get flagged too(dont remember)???

Quote:
I forgot to mention that suggestions of other corps like InterBus and The Syndicate could combine forces with ORE to make interesting ships as well, maybe as T2 variants.
That would be amazing, a co-op project for shipping with Interbus!!! And a co-op for the Syndicate for what.... a mobile pirate base or the ship carrier or something????????

No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
Kathern Aurilen
#18 - 2013-02-14 22:03:38 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
If we're lucky the Orca will get (re)purposed into a proper mining support vessel, as it was originally intended, when tiericide hits it. 200K ore bay, 5K cargo and 5K fleet bay, SMA holds only mining vessels... Then maybe CCP can think about expanding the Industrial Command Ships line.
Even small mining fleets need a a bit of cover too. I don't see the problem with a frig or cruiser in the ship bay... just in case.

But I guess if they're that small, I guess the drones could take care of that.

No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
Kate stark
#19 - 2013-02-14 22:27:46 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
If we're lucky the Orca will get (re)purposed into a proper mining support vessel, as it was originally intended, when tiericide hits it. 200K ore bay, 5K cargo and 5K fleet bay, SMA holds only mining vessels... Then maybe CCP can think about expanding the Industrial Command Ships line.


5k fleet bay?
you are aware that that's less than one cycle of ore from 1 ship.
right?

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#20 - 2013-02-15 00:09:47 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
I've often thought that the Orca tries to be all things to all people: huge carrying capacity, tractor beam bonus, command bonus, fleet hangar, ship maintenance bay, survey scanner range bonus. This is too much responsibility to put in one hull.

I see at least three ships in the repertoire: a covops frigate with the survey scanner bonus, a command ship sized command ship with the command bonus, tractor bonus & fleet hangar, and a hauler with the carrying capacity & ship maintenance bay.

It's not good at everything, unless you specifically fit it to fulfill specific role. Then it comparatively loose of other roles.
I, for one, don't see, why we need any more ORE ships, unless there's some clear advantage for one. With Venture available, it seems unlikey.
Also, the gap between transports, freighters and JF is intentional. Arguments "to close the gap" are unlikely to be heard.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
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