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Intergalactic Summit

 
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The chains you choose to wear.
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#121 - 2013-02-13 19:28:08 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
You poor, hopeless child. You've given up, and so you resigned your humanity for something far less than your true potential. To become a Capsuleer is to become capable of transcending all restrictions; it doesn't remove them outright. You have chosen the short, easy path that will not bring you nearly as far as you could travel.


Transcending restrictions is not something I consider to be a good thing. I never have, I never will. You can keep your anarchy, I'm going to help build a society.
von Khan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#122 - 2013-02-13 19:30:21 UTC
Sansha’s promised Land a new Paradise where every citizen was free to pursue their dreams. Peace and unity for all citizens. To support this Sansha had melded man and machine to create unquestioning cybernetic slaves. His dream was that these True Slaves would free other more worthy people to pursue peaceful and productive lives the True Citizen.

Here lies the fundamental error on Sansha’s vision, which is to determine the value of ones humanity over the other?

von Khan
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2013-02-13 19:31:37 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Transcending restrictions is not something I consider to be a good thing. I never have, I never will. You can keep your anarchy, I'm going to help build a society.


No, you won't. Society requires more than a handful of people. And, unfortunately, controlling and annulling millions of minds under one only doesn't make them count as people. So, actually, the Nation is a very small group, far from reaching the size of a nation or a society of any kind.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#124 - 2013-02-13 19:32:28 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
I've finally opened my eyes and chosen my chains for myself rather then be told what to do. I've chosen Utopia. Join us in our goal to rebuild the cluster into one that doesn't need constant warfare or killing to justify the egos of the mad leaders and false beliefs.


I'm going to remember that the next time an Incursion happens in our space.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#125 - 2013-02-13 19:37:19 UTC
von Khan wrote:
Sansha’s promised Land a new Paradise where every citizen was free to pursue their dreams. Peace and unity for all citizens. To support this Sansha had melded man and machine to create unquestioning cybernetic slaves. His dream was that these True Slaves would free other more worthy people to pursue peaceful and productive lives the True Citizen.

Here lies the fundamental error on Sansha’s vision, which is to determine the value of ones humanity over the other?


This assumes, quite incorrectly, that True Slaves cannot persue peaceful and productive lives. Both Slaves and Citizens are to be able to persue their goals. Their goals, though, are different by their very nature. A Pilot's goal and a Mechanic have different goals, so too does a Slave and a Citizen of Nation. Both the Pilot and the Mechanic are valuable and required for the whole to function. Both have great value in their system.
von Khan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2013-02-13 19:43:42 UTC  |  Edited by: von Khan
So what is your nature? You assign great value, who judges this values?

von Khan
Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#127 - 2013-02-13 20:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolas Merovech
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
You poor, hopeless child. You've given up, and so you resigned your humanity for something far less than your true potential. To become a Capsuleer is to become capable of transcending all restrictions; it doesn't remove them outright. You have chosen the short, easy path that will not bring you nearly as far as you could travel.


Transcending restrictions is not something I consider to be a good thing. I never have, I never will. You can keep your anarchy, I'm going to help build a society.


To be human is to be chaotic, the universe is chaotic. Order is an illusion of the mind, a trick of perception.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.
Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#128 - 2013-02-13 20:39:24 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
von Khan wrote:
Sansha’s promised Land a new Paradise where every citizen was free to pursue their dreams. Peace and unity for all citizens. To support this Sansha had melded man and machine to create unquestioning cybernetic slaves. His dream was that these True Slaves would free other more worthy people to pursue peaceful and productive lives the True Citizen.

Here lies the fundamental error on Sansha’s vision, which is to determine the value of ones humanity over the other?


This assumes, quite incorrectly, that True Slaves cannot persue peaceful and productive lives. Both Slaves and Citizens are to be able to persue their goals. Their goals, though, are different by their very nature. A Pilot's goal and a Mechanic have different goals, so too does a Slave and a Citizen of Nation. Both the Pilot and the Mechanic are valuable and required for the whole to function. Both have great value in their system.



Ah, but a mechanic can choose to leave his ship for another, or train to be a pilot.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#129 - 2013-02-13 20:44:03 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
You poor, hopeless child. You've given up, and so you resigned your humanity for something far less than your true potential. To become a Capsuleer is to become capable of transcending all restrictions; it doesn't remove them outright. You have chosen the short, easy path that will not bring you nearly as far as you could travel.


Transcending restrictions is not something I consider to be a good thing. I never have, I never will. You can keep your anarchy, I'm going to help build a society.


To be human is to be chaotic, the universe is chaotic. Order is an illusion of the mind, a trick of perception.


Chaos has nothing to do with being human. This is a nice piece of poetry, but it has no bearing in fact. Humans are both orderly and chaotic, in equal turns, but neither is a necessary precondition for "being human". Given the option of order and chaos, and weighing the evidence, I choose order and repudiate chaos.
Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#130 - 2013-02-13 20:58:07 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
You poor, hopeless child. You've given up, and so you resigned your humanity for something far less than your true potential. To become a Capsuleer is to become capable of transcending all restrictions; it doesn't remove them outright. You have chosen the short, easy path that will not bring you nearly as far as you could travel.


Transcending restrictions is not something I consider to be a good thing. I never have, I never will. You can keep your anarchy, I'm going to help build a society.


To be human is to be chaotic, the universe is chaotic. Order is an illusion of the mind, a trick of perception.


Chaos has nothing to do with being human. This is a nice piece of poetry, but it has no bearing in fact. Humans are both orderly and chaotic, in equal turns, but neither is a necessary precondition for "being human". Given the option of order and chaos, and weighing the evidence, I choose order and repudiate chaos.


Humans are curious in that way, true. We work for an environment of peace and order, but in the same stroke we create an environment in which chaos thrives. You can see this in the opposition to your endeavor; you can enslave billions, but there will always be someone to oppose you. In effect, your pursuit of order is causing chaos.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#131 - 2013-02-13 21:08:13 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
You poor, hopeless child. You've given up, and so you resigned your humanity for something far less than your true potential. To become a Capsuleer is to become capable of transcending all restrictions; it doesn't remove them outright. You have chosen the short, easy path that will not bring you nearly as far as you could travel.


Transcending restrictions is not something I consider to be a good thing. I never have, I never will. You can keep your anarchy, I'm going to help build a society.


To be human is to be chaotic, the universe is chaotic. Order is an illusion of the mind, a trick of perception.


Chaos has nothing to do with being human. This is a nice piece of poetry, but it has no bearing in fact. Humans are both orderly and chaotic, in equal turns, but neither is a necessary precondition for "being human". Given the option of order and chaos, and weighing the evidence, I choose order and repudiate chaos.


Humans are curious in that way, true. We work for an environment of peace and order, but in the same stroke we create an environment in which chaos thrives. You can see this in the opposition to your endeavor; you can enslave billions, but there will always be someone to oppose you. In effect, your pursuit of order is causing chaos.


That is, again, not a necessary precondition for being human.

Perfect or near perfect order is possible, at least within our system. It is not even necessary that you should have to go along with it, willingly or no, so long as we end up in a position where you cannot possible do again what you have done before. For this, I am not going to ask your consent.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#132 - 2013-02-13 21:11:42 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:

Ah, but a mechanic can choose to leave his ship for another, or train to be a pilot.


But a photon cannot choose to be a hound. The terms Slave and Citizen in Nation are far more base of descriptions then simply Pilot and Mechanic, I tried to use those terms as an anology. But just for the record, a Slave in Nation who is a Mechanic can leave their ship. Or train to be a Pilot. However if such a thing happens it is generally due to the overall understanding that the person would serve a greater purpose in a new role. Both the Slave and his/her/it's superiors understand this, and so the transition occurs.
Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#133 - 2013-02-13 21:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolas Merovech
Tiberious, what does it mean to be human?

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#134 - 2013-02-13 21:21:09 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
What does it mean to be human?


Ask a hundred people in the Empires and get a hundred different answers.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#135 - 2013-02-13 21:22:25 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
What does it mean to be human?


Frankly, it is an irrelevant question. You'll notice that all of my commentaries that even come close to touching upon this are framed not as positive statements, but as skepticism that a given concept is related. This is intentional, and not meant as a deflection but merely a statement of evidence.
Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#136 - 2013-02-13 21:23:33 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
What does it mean to be human?


Ask a hundred people in the Empires and get a hundred different answers.


Well, there's the easy bull@#$% answer.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#137 - 2013-02-13 21:24:44 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
What does it mean to be human?


Ask a hundred people in the Empires and get a hundred different answers.


Well, there's the easy bull@#$% answer.


Regardless of what I consider humanity to be, know that I wish to be better then I am.
Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#138 - 2013-02-13 21:28:30 UTC
Let me rephrase the question.

What are the "necessary preconditions" for being human? You left that point open in your previous remark. And yes, your response to my question was a deflection. Anyone reading our dialogue can see that this question is the heart of the matter.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.
Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#139 - 2013-02-13 21:29:31 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
What does it mean to be human?


Ask a hundred people in the Empires and get a hundred different answers.


Well, there's the easy bull@#$% answer.


Regardless of what I consider humanity to be, know that I wish to be better then I am.



Then you don't belong in Sansha's Nation.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#140 - 2013-02-13 21:31:09 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
Let me rephrase the question.

What are the "necessary preconditions" for being human? You left that point open in your previous remark. And yes, your response to my question was a deflection. Anyone reading our dialogue can see that this question is the heart of the matter.

Like so many other things, the necessary precondition for being human is to be considered such by law.