EVE General Discussion

Nonsense! You are not CCP and you do not have the authority to make such a statement!!

I state what I have observed in the nearly nine years I have been playing EVE.
And the situation I have mentioned above (removal of Learning skill-tree) is the only occurrence I have observed inside that time-frame.

Ok, fair enough. That just means that you're probably not thinking about what the learning skills actually did — what it was you bought with your time.

What you bought was faster training. You did not buy more SP. No matter how well you trained them, you might still end up with less SP than people who didn't (although, admittedly, I think there was one very special case where that could happen). That doesn't change the advantage you got from the skill: faster training than without them.

When the skills were removed and everyone had their attributes equalised, that advantage was gone. You could no longer train faster than other people (through the use of skills at least). The time you had spent on gaining this advantage was lost with the advantage itself. You were given back that time so you could spend it on another, hopefully more permanent advantage.

No, that's not the only disadvantage. There are plenty more, such as worse bonuses, a smaller selection of ships and fittings. Yes, I'm still talking about the character that has 5M more SP.

The thing is that you keep thinking that SP strictly translates into advantages (and I'm not being nitpicky about clone costs here). This is untrue. SP are meaningless. Skill levels trainslate into advantages, and they do so through an intricate web of interconnected bonuses, prerequisites, and diminishing returns that means that there is exactly zero correlation between having 5M more SP and having any kind of useful advantage. So even with skill levels, there is no direct correlation between number of levels and advantages because different levels cost and provide different things, especially when combined with other skill levels.

Take my 2M SP sample newbie character build and pit him against someone with 7M SP (5M SP more). Who has the advantage? Well, sometimes, it's the 7M guy, because he has trained those skills higher and get higher bonuses. Sometimes, its an equal match, because the 7M guy has spent his additional 5M SP on training Starbase Defense Management V and Sovereignty IV, but doesn't have the ISK, standings, or friends to actually be in a corp. And sometimes, it's the 2M SP newbie because the 7M guy only has capital shield/armour/cap rep systems trained — none of which will fit on his Ibis, which is the only ship he can fly.

So no, it's not obviously an advantage to have 5M more SP, nor is it obviously a disadvantage or a zero advantage. it is, in fact, completely detached from advantages altogether — SP is not the advantage you're looking for. Ability is. SP is not an ability. Something like, say, flying a specific ship is, or getting specific bonuses, or training faster. This is why CCP has little compunction about handing out SP but are very careful to ensure that people don't lose their abilities or advantages, and why, when people unavoidably do lose those things (and only then) they get their time reimbursed so they can spend it on some other advantage.

Not really, no. New players can get a single advantage cheaper, but that's an advantage over those who haven't trained the same skills. It does not mean they have an advantage over you — it only means you're now at the same level in this one specific area (and them staying firmly behind in another area since they haven't paid their dues there yet). Once they get to your level, both of you have to pay exactly the same to get an advantage over the other.

Not but CCP are (and have) and he's simply repeating what they've said… and how they've applied their policy. So no, unless you want to call what is actually happening and what the devs say “nonsense” it's entirely correct.

I have seen plenty of requests of "Pure PvP-pilots" that want CCP to remove the ugly stain that is the mandatory Mining I skill from their sheet.

And they were not even asking for a refund (well, most of them weren't). I have NEVER seen a thread that such a request was ever granted.

I can not be bothered to skim the databases for one pilot who may not have the Mining skill at all, but I doubt it is there to be found.


(maybe, just maybe there are 2003-2005 characters out there who never trained it and were created without Mining 1 on their sheet, but those were simpler days)

Perhaps this can all be settled once and for all.... and do it WoW-style.

All skills get lowered to their minimum level after the summer patch and the rest of the SP get dumped in the free to allocate pool.

Call it a .... wait for it .... "Reskill".

People can bring the levels back up to their previous heights and maybe even have something left to put into new or different skills.

Trade-off: Under the "if-you-could-fly-it-before-act" you may lose skillpoints at high ranked skills to pay for those shiney new racial destroyer/battlecruiser skills if you were unlucky enough to fly interdictors or command ships since they will have to be payed for out of the pool.

That way you have just as much skills before and after the patch, though you may have traded in a bit of effectiveness in some higher up skills.

I can safely post this because it will never happen, because as Whitehound pointed out... I am not a CCP Official and my word means Jack *brown substance that will be censored*.



Cute that now all of a sudden you start to point out minor flaws in grammar. What's next... interpunction?

Well that escalated quickly

CCP Gargant, while you are here. Can we get a Dev's opinion on the matter?

Quite frankly, it should have been locked long ago.

yeah, after the first post.

That's kind of funny because I have already trained and sold one Orca alt, and have just finished training a second because I kind of like having an Orca. So you could say that I should be expressing a double-dose of butthurt, only I'm not because I understand why CCP won't reimburse skills and also personally feel that it's a ******* idiotic idea.