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Hulk in hi sec need better protection
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eniws yllis
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-10-26 10:31:48 UTC
Before anyone accuses me of being a 'whining' carebear, pease read the post carefully, especially the hisdtorical precedent/point I make.
Thanks

Is it not about time Hulks gained some protection from those in hi sec determined to turn Eve into an alternative place for failed WoW gankers to play?

In the 16th and 17th C here on Earth, merchants that were attacked were given armaments to defend themselves with - the ships of the Honourable East India company were some of the best non-military armed vessels at sea. Is it not time to consider maybe doubling the number of rig slots - or provide them with weapon only high slots, as to leave us totally unprotected is unrealistic? Either we need better ship equipment - or a much faster response down to 0.5 sec from concord. - after all, warping out with a ship that has an align time of the average ice-age and a 0-warp of infinity tends to be a non-starter ;-).
I accept Eve is a PVP orientated game, but surely not a gank-sponsored one? I am simply asking for the ability to not be a 'sitting duck' for those with no combat talents (no-one is going to tell me ganking Hulks takes skill).
In low sec you take a calculated risk, but this behaviour is once again ruining the enjoyment I get from the game, and I see no real reason to pay for something I can no longer continue to enjoy, yes I could just leave the game - but why should I have to when the game can simply be improved?
For those who think this is a whine - think again, Eve has the ability to be many things, but the mentality of those just destroying these ships really does have the ability to stop people playing, and CCP depend upon real life income.

Any constructive thoughts welcomed - either for or against...better yet, have you any ideas about how to better protect merchant ships...as it seems unrealistic that in the type of Universe Eve has eveolved such ships would be unarmed at all...

Finally, if there are many typos - I apologise, my eyesight is affected bt diabetes and this print style is awfull :-)
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#2 - 2011-10-26 10:34:40 UTC
goto battleclinic.com, look at the loadouts and look for tanked hulk fits....
eniws yllis
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-10-26 10:37:06 UTC
will do - ummm where are they?..I play whilst studying for a degree through the Open University - so use what I laughingly call my spare time :-)...as such have not 'looked around' [erhaps as much as I could.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#4 - 2011-10-26 10:37:19 UTC
the hulks are ganked in high sec not because of profits but because goons started a stupid campaign against ice miner. You cant do anything about this, even buffing the tank wont help you, seriously.
Further, eve is a sandbox, so if players decide suiciding others despite concord is a good idea, they should be able to, because, like I said this campaign is not profit driven and will be over at some point of time. Will CCP be required to de-buff the hulk again once its over??
Hulks arent combat ships, so I dont think they must have any better tank, they are mining vessels
eniws yllis
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-10-26 10:37:50 UTC
DoH!!!! battleclinic dot com...bit of a clue there :-)
eniws yllis
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2011-10-26 10:39:31 UTC
Robert - agree about the class of vessel, but my point about merchant vessels still stands, it makes no sense to not improve them, after all, if war ships did not improve to counter an enemy capability, we woulsd all still by flting around in reapers :-)
eniws yllis
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-10-26 10:54:42 UTC
Blastcaps - have done - but will any actually stand a chance of getting away from a - say - 5 - or 6 ship gank...because that is what is going to be needed?

None of those I looked at looked like they could
el alasar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-10-26 11:04:18 UTC
please check introducing remote resist. what you actually want is a new mechanism to counter high alpha/ ganking.

check the moderated 10000 papercuts evelopedia page! http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Little_things_and_ideas_-_low_hanging_fruit_-_10000_papercuts comment, bump(!) and like what you like
TrollFace TrololMcFluf
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2011-10-26 13:02:14 UTC
A hulks/mining barges protection is its pilot

You dont have to mine into a jet can but if you do you open yourself up to the risks

You dont have to stay aligned to a station/ ss and you dont have to keep a eye on local and keep your dscan open and clicking but if you do you can save yourself from a gank

Hulks are fine its the pilots incompetence thats the problem
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#10 - 2011-10-26 13:14:07 UTC
eniws yllis wrote:
the 16th and 17th C here on Earth
…is not particularly relevant to EVE. Especially not since you're talking about merchant ships, not fishing boats or oil rigs (which are far closer to the Hulk in terms of what they do). You make a good case for why we should have armoured transpo… oh, wait. We have those already.
Quote:
Is it not about time Hulks gained some protection from those in hi sec determined to turn Eve into an alternative place for failed WoW gankers to play?
It has plenty of protections. It's just that the pilots refuse to use them because they believe mining a tiny bit more ore is preferable to not losing their ships. It's not really a problem with the mechanics, but with the psychology of those being attacked. The game can't really fix that…
Quote:
I accept Eve is a PVP orientated game, but surely not a gank-sponsored one?
Ganking is encouraged, yes, for a number of reasons.
Quote:
In low sec you take a calculated risk
And you do the same in highsec — it's just a slightly different calculation.
Quote:
yes I could just leave the game - but why should I have to when the game can simply be improved?
Well, for one, you'd have to show how your idea improves the game, first. Not just your place in it — the game as a whole. The problem is that, quite often, things that would improve the game would be directly bad for you. It's just that kind of game.
eniws yllis
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-10-26 14:50:05 UTC
Tippit - oil rigs were not around back then so not relevant, the fishing boats were not attacked due to low value, if they were - they would have been protected.

What protection is there a pilot can use against 5 or 6 determined ganklers?...just enough to get out of the area, I looked on battleckininc and did not see anything that looked like it may have helped.

agree on ganking being there and on risks, but what risj is there in hi sec?...it is not a risk, it is a guaranteed cert you are going to lose a hulk in these situations, I just want a chance of bein g able to get out ot tank (hahaha) the gankers.

Improve the game - hard to define, many minners/carebears would like the same opportunities I am listing here, are we not relevant enough just because we are not a majority?
eniws yllis
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-10-26 14:51:55 UTC
Trollface - I have never only rarely jetcan mined, but theft is not the issue here.

What protection can a pilot give to a hulk?...that is the whole nub, or point, of this?

Apilots incompetence is irrelevant where there is no equipment up to the job.
eniws yllis
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2011-10-26 14:54:33 UTC
el alasar - maybe if in a group that would help, but I mine alone and play the same way (no, I am not anti-social ;-) ).

I am simply looking for the field to be 'evened' somewhat.
Schnoo
The Schnoo
#14 - 2011-10-26 15:06:23 UTC
i have never mined in eve, but the idea of profitable griefing people in hisec is just silly; what's worse is being able to earn from it or ending up doing more ISK damage than what your loss is.
and no, answers like "it's the sandbox" or "eve is a pvp game" have no merit here; hisec provides only consequence to the offending party, not higher security in any sense;
a simple way to fix all this is to have concord pay no insurance to the offending party, and a much larger insurance for those killed in a concord-offending action (possibly the insurance of those offending ships)
eniws yllis
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-10-26 15:19:03 UTC
Schnoo wrote:
i have never mined in eve, but the idea of profitable griefing people in hisec is just silly; what's worse is being able to earn from it or ending up doing more ISK damage than what your loss is.
and no, answers like "it's the sandbox" or "eve is a pvp game" have no merit here; hisec provides only consequence to the offending party, not higher security in any sense;
a simple way to fix all this is to have concord pay no insurance to the offending party, and a much larger insurance for those killed in a concord-offending action (possibly the insurance of those offending ships)




Or fine the offenders an amount equal to twice the value of the ship lost/
The idea has merits...is there not a risk of those who have just cause - or who do this (such as mercs on a contract for instance) then becoming victims of the system?

Maybe mercs could have killrights (of the ganked) transferred with the contract to protect them?
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#16 - 2011-10-26 15:38:15 UTC
You know what would be interesting?

Well yeah, that too... but imagine if there was an ECM high slot module that you could only fit on ORE mining barges that could target up to three attacking ships and jam them with a high success rate?

Yeah, you'd have to give up a mining laser for it, and larger groups would still own you, but it would make people look and think before they gank...

Not saying it's a good idea, just a random firing of neurons I just had.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
eniws yllis
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2011-10-26 16:01:26 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
You know what would be interesting?

Well yeah, that too... but imagine if there was an ECM high slot module that you could only fit on ORE mining barges that could target up to three attacking ships and jam them with a high success rate?

Yeah, you'd have to give up a mining laser for it, and larger groups would still own you, but it would make people look and think before they gank...

Not saying it's a good idea, just a random firing of neurons I just had.


Or an ecm with multiple lock capability?...maybe 2 or 3 ships locked by one module?...could give enough time to do the honourable thing - run like heck :-)
Xentara Vispari
Storm of Glory
#18 - 2011-10-26 16:05:08 UTC
Quote:
Blastcaps - have done - but will any actually stand a chance of getting away from a - say - 5 - or 6 ship gank...because that is what is going to be needed?


You don't give any information what types of gank ships you are talking about. One of the principles of EVE is, that NOTHING is safe, as soon as you undock. Today you like to have a ship that is safe from 5-6 ship. Tomorrow you will be ganked by 10 ships and then you come again.

You can never be safe, but you can avoid a lot of problems:

- use a heavy tank Hulk like this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=136104#post136104 - some gankers may prefer easier targets.

- mine in missions - this requires that people scan your mission site - more effort for gankers

- mine in systems without stations


This makes mining harder for you, but it also makes it harder for gankers.

It's EVE - adapt or die.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#19 - 2011-10-26 16:07:35 UTC
eniws yllis wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
You know what would be interesting?

Well yeah, that too... but imagine if there was an ECM high slot module that you could only fit on ORE mining barges that could target up to three attacking ships and jam them with a high success rate?

Yeah, you'd have to give up a mining laser for it, and larger groups would still own you, but it would make people look and think before they gank...

Not saying it's a good idea, just a random firing of neurons I just had.


Or an ecm with multiple lock capability?...maybe 2 or 3 ships locked by one module?...could give enough time to do the honourable thing - run like heck :-)


If you want it though you should give up a high slot for it. Efficiency or added protection? You must choose... but choose wisely.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
el alasar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-10-26 16:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: el alasar
Schnoo wrote:
a simple way to fix all this is to have concord pay no insurance to the offending party, and a much larger insurance for those killed in a concord-offending action (possibly the insurance of those offending ships)

it might help a bit against the casual ganker looking for low-value targets. but i believe that insurance (or no insurance) is actually not the solution. if insurance payout to the ganker was removed (which might be ok though) there would still be ganking: partially just for the lulz (gankers pay own money to have fun, "non-profit" ganking), partially to disrupt enemies, partially to make a living (catching a multi-billion isk industrial at a highsec gate).

when you fit nice mods, the ship price itself becomes only a fraction of the total fittings cost. and with the insurance you currently get back (especially for tech2 and faction ships) you could only buy a coffee. this might also be adressed - or is by design and wanted Roll

eniws yllis wrote:

What protection is there a pilot can use against 5 or 6 determined ganklers?...just enough to get out of the area, I looked on battleckininc and did not see anything that looked like it may have helped.

you might look into fitting similar to this for a safer hulk experience:


[Hulk, buffer hulk stip-1 KMB38]

3x Strip Miner I

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
3x Invulnerability Field II

Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


[Hulk, buffer hulk strip-2 KMB25]

3x Modulated Strip Miner II (Veldspar Mining Crystal II)

Medium Shield Extender II
3x Invulnerability Field II

2x Reactor Control Unit II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


[Hulk, buffer hulk strip-2 PG4]

3x Modulated Strip Miner II (Veldspar Mining Crystal II)

Medium 'Canyon' Shield Extender
3x Invulnerability Field II

2x Reactor Control Unit II

2x Medium Core Defence Field Extender I



[Hulk, buffer hulk strip-2 aux]

3x Modulated Strip Miner II (Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II)

2x Invulnerability Field II
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Medium Shield Extender II

Damage Control II
Micro K-Exhaust Core Augmentation

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

check the moderated 10000 papercuts evelopedia page! http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Little_things_and_ideas_-_low_hanging_fruit_-_10000_papercuts comment, bump(!) and like what you like
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