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Try reading instead of interpreting.

I would like you to quote the whole relevant passage in the future. You missed: ...since both of them train in the same pace within game mechanical fluctuations a player can manipulate.

That means if the accumulation is at the "same" pace, they can reach a given skill within the same timeframe. Now if is a bit more complecated and we need multiple skills do do any given thing. And the old player had to train additional skills vs a player after the patch. So it is the old players disadvantage.

The old player has an advantage of playing the game longer, you are right. But that is an advantage he should have! Given the skill mechanics of EVE, this is the thing to discern a vet from a newb and was always intended as part of the hardcore factor or whatever. If CCP wants to change that, they should go ahead and say it. Instead they say: A newb needs to be smart and specialise to beat the vet. Then please implement it that way.

The capital changes give the old players no advantage, they would not already have from playing the game longer than the new player. About that, see above.

A disadvantage balanced by the advantage of being older.



Who says to what extend older players should have an advantage? If what everyone says is true and people play the game for FUN, he has already had all the advantage he needs by gaining the fun from playing the game longer.



And we all know that to be a blatant lie. Try playing a specialized char to beat that PvP pilot with his off-grid booster alt.

A relevant argument would be, that a group of newbs can actually gang up on a veteran here with a marginal chance of success. However, please keep in mind that the time period where you're considered newb skill-wise is lightyears removed from other MMOs, so that the power difference is really a non factor in those other games.



The capital changes give older players an advantage, because cross skilling into another race's carrier or dreadnaught or even titan is a valid option for them with the changed requirements of which they already fulfil most, being already a captal pilot in the first place.

It is not a valid option for the new guy, as he will still be busy skilling fitting skills for his first carrier when the veteran has rounded out all 4 races' carriers.

me too.



that´s right.



Should be. But even if this skill´s aren´t redundant/obsolete/useless to me, that wouldn´t bring me to the conclusion that this should be the case for every one else. Even if all you sayd makes sense, there isn´t imo no argument why a reimbursement should´t be considered. I imagin the Pilot/Alt who finished that taining 3 months ago and now faces this changes. That doesn´t mean that he wouldnt have trained it, but that also doesn´t mean that a reimbursement would´t be the right thing to do.

As I said being an older char is what skilling in EVE is all about and thus a wanted advantage.


Lightyears is wrong if used as a metric for time (is what we do here) and the issue is already tackled by the planned ability of the newb to be smart and enable him to specialise in a much more reasonable timeframe than before the changes to the skilltree. I did not mean that he has this ability right now. In my eyes having multiple accounts is not a metric to be measured, when comparing training times of post- vs pre-patch characters.


That is also the natural advantage of a character being in the game longer. And thus has nothing to do with the discussion, because once the new character reaches the - now easier to reach - usefulness of one carrier, it will have the same "advantage" of the character already having the skills trained. But the second character had to spend much more time to reach the same usefulness for one carrier, than the post-patch character


It seems like we disagree on some of the very basic concepts of what EVE is. I do not only consider the PVP part itself fun. But also the skilltraining mechac itself by getting the most - SP wise - out of my subscription time. I know for a fact that other players think the same way I do. Hence having had fun with a given ship is not the only playstyle to consider. I like the fact I will have a SP amount put into the usefulness of one ship, that a 2nd player will need the same amount of SP (thus real-time) to reach the level I achieved. This is distinctive to other games where only game-time matters. And it should always stay that way.

In other words, while I am okay with making real-time to reach something more reasonable for new players, I want the opportunity to decide if the additional time - I spent on that same something - has the same value given the new circumstances.

Sorry, I could not stop me from teasing you a bit. :P


It is relevant because while the time it takes to sit down in a ship may be near the same, it now already incorporates usefull/needed skills that needed additional skilltime in the past. (Especially looking at command ships.)


Orca and the first capital, not only crosstraining capitals. Especially if you add in what I said above.

You are right, naturally was the wrong word. But adding in by design instead does not change what I meant to say I believe.




That's nice to know. Well, I am not so flexible with that, if I have the feeling of a lack of fairness to my optimized system. For example, if I optimized my Tengu-fitting for missions in-game and heavy missiles "suddenly" are getting a nerf, I know that all those guys who decided on using Tengus for their missions have to deal with the same influence out of mine and their control. So it's either adapt the fitting or to another ship for all of us. At the utmost I give off an annoyed sight and start up my EFT-warrior mode. No complaints.
I do not see that fairness in how skilltree changes are handled. Pre-patch characters will be stuck with e.g racial Battleship 5, even if they never intended to use it other than as a prereq. I mean why does it hurt to reimburse the old prereqs? If you reimburse them and later a person decides he wants to use a battleship effectively, they would still have to retrain it, just like a post-patch character would need to train it up, even if it is already able to fly four different carriers by then.

Additionally I cannot believe it would be that hard to just reimburse the old requirements - only if the player does not have another skill that required the the first – and force the player to put those skillpoints into the direction of the new requirements. Personally, I believe if these skillpoints are not enough for the new requirements to be bad luck – so start training them – but even without that it has more fairness to it than forced to be stuck on the old – now unrelated – skills.

Sorry sometimes i have trouble understanding something.

Now i get what u meant, just thought all skills listed in the ship prereqs are required to fly it. But the secondary skills
are only there to get to the primary skills.

Thanks for getting that through my pighead.

Well, not quite. You still have to think of two different skilltrees and you need to to reach the top of both to sit down in the ship.

But because of how the transition for existing players is going to be handled, you do not need to skill anything other than BC 5 and the old prereqs, which you already have. So you are golden.

Edit: And all cruiser to 3 but you should have those to already, since you said you can fly all if I recall correctly.

You won't be reimbursed the old secondary skills, but I am fighting hard to change that.

Of all the threadnaughts that have ever been. This is one.

I like to add, that i´d also would say, that in case of an reimbursement, there should also be the necessarity to bring the corresponding skills to the lvl that is needed for the new prereq´s.