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Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#761 - 2013-02-12 19:24:01 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Deornoth Drake wrote:

A about three months ago, my freighter alt started training for the 3 freighters she couldn't fly. So, now she is able to do it, but if I had known that 3 months ago, I wouldn't have trained 3 more racial industrials to lvl V. Hence, I vote for reimbursing soon to be obsolete prerequisits. These changes have not been announced anywhere before while the coming change to BC and destoyers was announced well in advance (thanks for the later one).


You knew 3 months ago that there was a skill patch. If it was that important to you, you could have waited until specifics are known.

Did you petition and get a GM's answer that nothing will change regarding the freighter skill requirements? That's the only scenario that would really justify a reimbursement and I find it a bit unlikely.


I have to agree that Deornoth's argument seems rather invalid, given he started only three months ago. But that does not change the validity for characters with the same scenario e.g one year ago.

.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#762 - 2013-02-12 19:25:29 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:


Reading comprehension ftw.

The character skilling an Orca after the patch will have a distinct disadvantae over Roy's Orca Alt: unless we also implement time travel, he will not be able to train at reduced skill times AND have used an Orca for 2 years.

There is another - hopefully the main - reason for no SP reimbursements: It goes completely contrary to EVE's skill/attribute system, where attributes decide your future skill speed. It's all about making sacrifices for having that skill you need NOW rather than LATER.


Reduced skilltimes were hard earned by requirering skills and thus training time "taking away" from your actual training plan, the reimbursement of those skills was the least CCP could do for taking away the reduced training time. Additionally all characters trained at the same pace before and after the patch within then possible boundaries. Also the usage of the Orca is worth nothing, when comparing training time requirements to get a character into an Orca and usable before and after the patch.


I'm not talking about reduced skill times via learning skills, i'm talking about reduced skill times via training AFTER the patch.

I sincerely hope even you would realize that a char that will START training in about 3 months can't possibly have been using his Orca for 2 years, now?
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#763 - 2013-02-12 19:27:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
Lexmana wrote:

I don't have much problems with young characters exploding in carriers. But, exploding carriers are not an ISK sink. It is a faucet that injects ISK into the game through insurance payouts.



Are insurance payouts for carriers that high?

Sitting in a Basilisk: Price 130 mil, payout 54 mil, insurance cost 16 mil.

So an insured Basilisk costs 146 mil, I get 54 mil. 146 - 54 = 92

Do you think the salvage is worth 92 mil? Is the payout ratio for carriers so much higher?

Also loot is not insured, so we have a 50% ISK sink there. (Only 50% drops last I heard at least)


It takes only a little research and some small measure of brains to realize what an ISK faucet vs. an ISK sink is.

Hint: Ships are not built from ISK.


Would you care to elaborate on that in a convo, or link me a more detailed explanation and ratios of sink vs. faucet? I seemingly do not have the faculty of imagination to understand it with just this.

Edit: Nevermind, I found this, thanks for inspiring me.

Now that I think about it, money and value are clearly two different things.

.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#764 - 2013-02-12 19:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
I'm not talking about reduced skill times via learning skills, i'm talking about reduced skill times via training AFTER the patch.

I sincerely hope even you would realize that a char that will START training in about 3 months can't possibly have been using his Orca for 2 years, now?


Yes, I do understand that. This is still beside the point of comparing skill training times. The only relevant measure in this discussion.

.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#765 - 2013-02-12 20:12:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Chi'Nane T'Kal
Savira Terrant wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
I'm not talking about reduced skill times via learning skills, i'm talking about reduced skill times via training AFTER the patch.

I sincerely hope even you would realize that a char that will START training in about 3 months can't possibly have been using his Orca for 2 years, now?


Yes, I do understand that. This is still beside the point of comparing skill training times. The only relevant measure in this discussion.


No, the only relevant measure is time invested. SP/h are not a fixed number.


Let's say I'm skilling up weapon skills and am therefore mapped PER/WIL.
If I wish to dabble in PI i can decide to do so NOW and reap immediate benefits or after a remap and thus have delayed benefits. This would directly affect my SP/h and thus my hours invested when i arrive at the same SP amount.


Skilling an Orca a year ago vs. after the patch is the exact same decision, just a tiny bit more abstract, as the precise benefit (WHEN will CCP cook up their next skill changes that affect Orca skills) and cost (HOW will Orca skills change) was an unknown factor when the decision was made. However, it's not like CCP never touched their skill system, so it was still a decision between NOW and THEN, because you knew that CCP could always change skill requirements.


Let's take another example, carrier skills. How would you go about reimbursing pilots, do you want to check how many hours they spent sitting in a BS? Do you want to take into account, how they used their remaps? Because that information is relevant, as you can currently split carrier skills cleanly into INT and PER based without any fixed order to the remap sections. After the patch however, the INT section will have to be strictly before the PER section, because jump drive skills will be a requirement for carrier skills. So there is some likelyhood the difference is not simply the difference between BS III and BS V. How much value would a bonus remap used up in the process have?
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#766 - 2013-02-12 20:55:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:


No, the only relevant measure is time invested. SP/h are not a fixed number.


Let's say I'm skilling up weapon skills and am therefore mapped PER/WIL.
If I wish to dabble in PI i can decide to do so NOW and reap immediate benefits or after a remap and thus have delayed benefits. This would directly affect my SP/h and thus my hours invested when i arrive at the same SP amount.


Skilling an Orca a year ago vs. after the patch is the exact same decision, just a tiny bit more abstract, as the precise benefit (WHEN will CCP cook up their next skill changes that affect Orca skills) and cost (HOW will Orca skills change) was an unknown factor when the decision was made. However, it's not like CCP never touched their skill system, so it was still a decision between NOW and THEN, because you knew that CCP could always change skill requirements.


Let's take another example, carrier skills. How would you go about reimbursing pilots, do you want to check how many hours they spent sitting in a BS? Do you want to take into account, how they used their remaps? Because that information is relevant, as you can currently split carrier skills cleanly into INT and PER based without any fixed order to the remap sections. After the patch however, the INT section will have to be strictly before the PER section, because jump drive skills will be a requirement for carrier skills. So there is some likelyhood the difference is not simply the difference between BS III and BS V. How much value would a bonus remap used up in the process have?


The fact that a gaming company could change their skilltrees is pretty obvious. But it is very important how they handle the transition in an MMO. All I am asking for, is to treat all players the same, regardless if they are already able to fly any given ship or not. This is only possible with a reimbursement/reset of skillpoints.

You have a very valid point that the ability to remap attributes complicates the whole matter. But if you look at it closely, you could only effectively use remaps on specialised longterm skillplans like capitals or similar long goals anyway. Even if you use remaps more often than once a year due to the beginners bonus remaps, we all were given those. And fixing the order of the remaps is not an issue at all, since the goal at the end is the same, only that after the patch you actually trained usefull prereqs with that remap (or not so usefull in carriers case as some argue). So it is another win for new players.
Shifting around remap orders does not change anything.

SP/h are not a fixed number. That is exactly right. This only helps my argument that we should leave the amount of SP a player has to be the same before and after the patch.

.
Brother Ivan
Third Herd
Legion of Krabs
#767 - 2013-02-12 21:11:33 UTC
If a Dev could answer this question it would be awesome.

The comment on skill point reimbursement if there are "no racial frigate/cruiser" skills present is quite ambiguous, and I would like some clarification as to whether it applies to the case of no frigate/cruiser skills at all, or missing specific racial firgate/cruiser skills.

Example:

Prior to skill split:
Amarr Frigate 4
Amarr Cruiser 3

Gallente Frigate 4
Gallente Cruiser 3

Battlecruiser 4

(assuming no other skills)

would a character with the above skills be given the skill points (not the skills themselves) for minmatar battlecruiser 4 and caldari battlecruiser 4 since there are no frigate/cruiser skills that correspond to those two races? or would the character simply be given the amarr and gallente battlecruiser skills, and no skill point reimbusment?

Any clarification is greatly appreciated.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#768 - 2013-02-12 21:26:43 UTC
Brother Ivan wrote:
If a Dev could answer this question it would be awesome.

The comment on skill point reimbursement if there are "no racial frigate/cruiser" skills present is quite ambiguous, and I would like some clarification as to whether it applies to the case of no frigate/cruiser skills at all, or missing specific racial firgate/cruiser skills.

Example:

Prior to skill split:
Amarr Frigate 4
Amarr Cruiser 3

Gallente Frigate 4
Gallente Cruiser 3

Battlecruiser 4

(assuming no other skills)

would a character with the above skills be given the skill points (not the skills themselves) for minmatar battlecruiser 4 and caldari battlecruiser 4 since there are no frigate/cruiser skills that correspond to those two races? or would the character simply be given the amarr and gallente battlecruiser skills, and no skill point reimbusment?

Any clarification is greatly appreciated.


I am not a Dev, sorry. But it has been made very clear, that you only get the bc skills for those races you have the cruiser skill at 3 for and nothing else.

.
Deornoth Drake
Vandeo
#769 - 2013-02-12 21:30:03 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Deornoth Drake wrote:

A about three months ago, my freighter alt started training for the 3 freighters she couldn't fly. So, now she is able to do it, but if I had known that 3 months ago, I wouldn't have trained 3 more racial industrials to lvl V. Hence, I vote for reimbursing soon to be obsolete prerequisits. These changes have not been announced anywhere before while the coming change to BC and destoyers was announced well in advance (thanks for the later one).


You knew 3 months ago that there was a skill patch. If it was that important to you, you could have waited until specifics are known.

Did you petition and get a GM's answer that nothing will change regarding the freighter skill requirements? That's the only scenario that would really justify a reimbursement and I find it a bit unlikely.

In the same way it is unlikely that a GM would have know about the patch affecting the freighter skill requirements.
DancesWithVeldspar
#770 - 2013-02-12 21:39:46 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
I disagree. With "infinite" skillpoints it is even more important to get respecs, if I am not allowed to alter the time spent on acquiring them by my time being actively online and farming SP - as is the case here. In EVE part of our subscription can directly be translated in "x SP per payment" while we can only make one payment per 30 days.
With regards to games, if you are considering anything other than fun for your return on money/plex, you seriously need to re-evaluate your life priorites! Yes, you can translate your subscription to "x SP per payment" but that doesn't make you look good.

You also need to explain why respecs are even more important with "infinite" skillpoints. You can still learn what is needed and isn't that the important desire? If you can no longer do what you want, that fuels respecs.

Savira Terrant wrote:
Nerfing does not take place here at all. These are simple changes to the skilltree making skills themselves irrelevant (not nerfed) for the purpose of the ability to fly something.
I consider the word nerf to be a generalised adjective of irrelevant, so it will help me to understand you if you explain what nerf means to you. Making skills irrelevant means fewer people will buy them, which in general terms is a nerf, isn't it?

I'm very confused by this next bit. Either already having the ship skills is good or not. You can't claim both.
Savira Terrant wrote:
Instead other (now usefull) skills take over their place. So if a character has all the old prereqs and can sit in his beloved ship, he spent time for training now irrelevant skills (for that purpose) and additionally has/had to skill the usefull skills to reach the same usability of a character that started training after or aware of these changes. In other words, old characters are screwed over twice.

Speed is all but irrelevant here

You've been making use of the ship long before (months/years?) a character that gets into an Orca after this skill change goes ahead. Why are you disregarding that?

The Mining barge skill was irrelevant to you once you had injected the Industrial Command Ships skill. If you had lost the Mining barge skill, you could still have continued training your Industrial Command Ships skill. Read some of the replies in this thread from people that had been podded without up-to-date clones.

So why are you complaining now?

And why don't you not already have the useful skills if they are useful?
Brother Ivan
Third Herd
Legion of Krabs
#771 - 2013-02-12 21:44:58 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:

I am not a Dev, sorry. But it has been made very clear, that you only get the bc skills for those races you have the cruiser skill at 3 for and nothing else.


Thank you for your input, but my question was not regarding the battlecruiser skill split but rather this specific passage in the dev blog

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#772 - 2013-02-12 22:25:28 UTC
DancesWithVeldspar wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
I disagree. With "infinite" skillpoints it is even more important to get respecs, if I am not allowed to alter the time spent on acquiring them by my time being actively online and farming SP - as is the case here. In EVE part of our subscription can directly be translated in "x SP per payment" while we can only make one payment per 30 days.
With regards to games, if you are considering anything other than fun for your return on money/plex, you seriously need to re-evaluate your life priorites! Yes, you can translate your subscription to "x SP per payment" but that doesn't make you look good.

You also need to explain why respecs are even more important with "infinite" skillpoints. You can still learn what is needed and isn't that the important desire? If you can no longer do what you want, that fuels respecs.

Savira Terrant wrote:
Nerfing does not take place here at all. These are simple changes to the skilltree making skills themselves irrelevant (not nerfed) for the purpose of the ability to fly something.
I consider the word nerf to be a generalised adjective of irrelevant, so it will help me to understand you if you explain what nerf means to you. Making skills irrelevant means fewer people will buy them, which in general terms is a nerf, isn't it?

I'm very confused by this next bit. Either already having the ship skills is good or not. You can't claim both.
Savira Terrant wrote:
Instead other (now usefull) skills take over their place. So if a character has all the old prereqs and can sit in his beloved ship, he spent time for training now irrelevant skills (for that purpose) and additionally has/had to skill the usefull skills to reach the same usability of a character that started training after or aware of these changes. In other words, old characters are screwed over twice.

Speed is all but irrelevant here

You've been making use of the ship long before (months/years?) a character that gets into an Orca after this skill change goes ahead. Why are you disregarding that?

The Mining barge skill was irrelevant to you once you had injected the Industrial Command Ships skill. If you had lost the Mining barge skill, you could still have continued training your Industrial Command Ships skill. Read some of the replies in this thread from people that had been podded without up-to-date clones.

So why are you complaining now?

And why don't you not already have the useful skills if they are useful?



Min-maxing my character for a given payment I consider to be fun very much. I do not think a discussion about what and why something should be fun for anyone playing games is not very expedient for this threads purpose.
Also looking good, is by far my least concern here, instead I would like to freely exchange opinions.

Yes, I can still use any given skill I ever trained. But having "all" of the infinite skillpoints is not what I consider the right objective for all of my characters. Instead it is fun for me to obtain only skills that help my character doing one specific role. In case of the Orca, having Mining Barges, Mining and Astrogeology skilled does only help to fulfill the role if it stays an actual prereq to sit down in the Orca. If I do not need the skill to fly it, the time spent is in multiple ways wasted (even using the SP to skill Evasive Manuvering to 5 would in this case be a better use of the training time).

From my perspective nerfing a skill would be to either reduce the bonuses or make the object of the bonus less desirable. But in case of the Mining Barge skill that did not happen, if anything it was buffed by the changes to the Mining Barges it is still a very useful skill - if you want to mine. In the case of a character with the sole purpose of boosting a mining fleet, it was made redundant since you no longer need the skill to fill your role. Thus the skillpoints are wasted.

I would like to draw a clear line between skilltime and playtime. Yes, maybe someone had the chance to use the Orca for two years already, but that is because he started playing the game earlier and nothing else. That does not give him neither an advantage nor a disatvantage to a player starting the game today, since both of them train in the same pace within game mechanical fluctuations a player can manipulate. If you now give a player the Orca without the need to skill the Mining Barges first however, is a clear advantage to the new player in terms of training time to fill his role.

It will never be irrelevant to train a prereq skill, because you will have to train it at least once to inject the skill. Also training was not possible in the past after you lost a prereq, that only now gets changed to spare us of headaches.

.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#773 - 2013-02-12 22:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Brother Ivan wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:

I am not a Dev, sorry. But it has been made very clear, that you only get the bc skills for those races you have the cruiser skill at 3 for and nothing else.


Thank you for your input, but my question was not regarding the battlecruiser skill split but rather this specific passage in the dev blog

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.



Your character would not get the skillpoints to the allocation pool. Instead you will only be given the Amarr and Gallente Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills at your current level. Since you did not say anything about the destroyer skill. If you do not have it, you will not get the respective Destroyer skills.

.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#774 - 2013-02-13 02:27:31 UTC
Hi, i have a small question to the future skill change.

When i can fly all Command Ships, i would get 4 racial BC Skills and them at lvl5. But they change the secondary
requirements of the Command Ships.

So would i also get those Skills reimbursed so that i could fly the cs again or is it only the BC Skill.
Interdictors/ Heavy Interdictor would be the same case.

Hope i can get an answer, preferred official of course

Thx
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#775 - 2013-02-13 02:49:49 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Hi, i have a small question to the future skill change.

When i can fly all Command Ships, i would get 4 racial BC Skills and them at lvl5. But they change the secondary
requirements of the Command Ships.

So would i also get those Skills reimbursed so that i could fly the cs again or is it only the BC Skill.
Interdictors/ Heavy Interdictor would be the same case.

Hope i can get an answer, preferred official of course

Thx

Official responses to this scenario have already been given.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#776 - 2013-02-13 04:12:24 UTC
if so when and where havent seen it, thx for the help
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#777 - 2013-02-13 04:21:58 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
if so when and where havent seen it, thx for the help

You don't need the new prerequisites if you can fly it now.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#778 - 2013-02-13 06:13:31 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
if so when and where havent seen it, thx for the help

You don't need the new prerequisites if you can fly it now.


sorry but that doesnt answer my question because i only trained warfare link specialist to 4 and the new cs will need armor, skirmish and so on at 5 (http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/64158/1/SkillCommandShip.jpg).

So what will happen in that case?
Marion Youngone
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#779 - 2013-02-13 07:14:22 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
CCP

You are contradicting yourself and screwing things up here.

Quote:
We are changing skill requirements to keep a training time close to what we have in game right now and to make sure players meet more relevant prerequisites when gearing for Capital Ships


Wrong....

Maller > reduced from 2 days to 18 hours
Navy Augoror > reduced from 3 days to 21 hours
Oracle > reduced from 4 days 3 hours to 1 day 16 hours
Abaddon > reduced from 8 days 19 hours to 2 days 19 hours
Armageddon Navy Issue > reduced from 7 days 9 hours to 3 days
Orca > 49 days to 17 days

These are clearly not "close to what we have in game right now"


You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships.

This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class.

The support skill requirements you have added are pointless, as any Cap pilot would be training them anyway. Having them as a pre-requisite is completely meaningless.



If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that.


I'm a new player to the game and after reading tons of guides and watching lots of tutorial vids on every aspect of the game I feel that I would be useful in a carrier at three months into the game. Hell from what I see in most fights you just do what the fc tells you to do and all that requires is clicking the mouse a few times on some buttons. Hardly rocket science there mate..
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#780 - 2013-02-13 08:55:08 UTC
Brother Ivan wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:

I am not a Dev, sorry. But it has been made very clear, that you only get the bc skills for those races you have the cruiser skill at 3 for and nothing else.


Thank you for your input, but my question was not regarding the battlecruiser skill split but rather this specific passage in the dev blog

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.



IF you have the battlecruiser skill trained but can not fly ANY battlecruiser (i.e. ALL of your cruiser skills are 2 or less), THEN you will get the SP invested in battlecruisers into your allocation pool.

It's a very specific scenario that would apply only for a very small minority of players. A useful scenario would be if you are a dedicated frigate/destroyer pilot, PER/WIL mapped and wish to learn for example leadership skils efficiently.


I could not come up with ANY scenario, where learning the destroyer skill without having any frigate at 3+ would make sense.