Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The difference between the orca and the cargo transporter is price. The orca rounds out at 700 million isk. Now while you maybe a isk baron, there are allot of people out there who are not. The ship offers an alternative to moving a ship, modules, components, and other items you want. It is substantially larger than the itty V in capacity, and has a tank that will cause people to commit substantially more resources in order to take it out before they get concorded. Odd that the main argument regarding the ehp of the cargo transporter is that it cannot be ganked by 1 guy in a destroyer in highsec. This particular industrial would essentially be safer against a single ganker. A gang though....

If you want to rob a train full of goods, you bring a gang. The ehp will not save you against that. Will the inherent dcu cause people to afk more. Yes. Will it give gang gankers more targets? Yep.

A solo ganker's target is the Fast Transporters.
The gank gang groups target is the Cargo Transporter and the Freighters.

On the fast transport. The t2 blockade runners got it right. Adapt what they do to the t1 hulls, minus the cloak.




As per the rules listed in the above thread by CCP Spitfire. Features and Ideas Rules.



The thread was checked, there is none. The front 3 pages were checked at the time of posting, there was none. The topics open were not active, and this concept is too large to be put into another thread, therefore hijacking their thread to spread my own idea's and concepts. This is not the post to argue what should or should not be posted. The idea has a thread, it is up to you whether you choose to comment on the idea itself or not. If you wish to comment, what is the constructive comment to be posted on the idea. Regardless of your opinion, I shall end this post by saying:


Thank you for the free bump, and thank you for your support of my ideas.

So, 60k ehp. You know thats into heavy PvP BC tank territory, right?

So, lets take say the Ity 5. Biggest of all the T1 sub-cap cargo movers. If fitted for moving cargo, with max skills, it has 38,433m3 for cargo and just short of 15k ehp and costs about 2 million isk, (at present.)
You want to increase this ro over 50km3 space and you want to more than quadruple the tank. How much should this vessel now be worth? I would expect it to fetch at least 150m to 200m isk.
And no, I'm not space rich. I don't see many new players having enough to afford that.

With 60k ehp, have you considered the effect of battle fitting it?

I said it beofre, and I'll say it again; T1 Industrials are not suitable for the role you are suggesting. Nor will they ever be. T1 Industrials are supposed to be cheap and affordable. What you want is something between an Industrial and a Freighter. Use the search dfunction for the term Mini Freighter, theres plenty of threads already.

Oh, and rather than going through all the bother of looking through the whole thread of common ideas, or checking 3 pages threads, just use the search function. It's much easier. And I still am not sure how you didn't spot at least two of those threads, seeing as they are posted in daily and have been since their creation pretty much.

The skiff is a T2 ship that costs 125m isk.
The skiff can move 12,000m3 of ore, otherwise its cargo space is negligible.
How, exactly, is this meant to be a good comparison to your idea of a T1 hauler that will have triple the cargo space, (which is also general purpose, not specialised,) with a similar tank and will sell for 5m isk?

That's probably the worst reasoning I've seen on this board yet.

Your idea just does not work for T1 industrials. Maybe it could work as a seperate class, but not this one.

And as for the necessity of 5 Talos to gank this thing, (or maybe 5 Brutix after the changes,) or 12 or 13 gank fit catalysts is just plain stupid.
At minimum your looking at an investment of close to 100m isk between 13 pilots or up to 600m isk between 5 to gank a 5m isk ship? Even if you had not.changed your op and your were now transporting a BS, it would barely be worth ganking this ship because 1) there's only a 50/50 chance the ship will drop as loot and 2) even if it did drop the value of the BS will probably not cover the cost of the gank.

But let's do a little more math shall we.
Currently, a fully fitted Badger MkII is priced around for about 15m isk. (That's being generous.)
For sake of argument, lets say a Providence sells for 1.5b isk.
The Providence has 30 times the cargo capacity and 20 times the tank. It's also costs 100 times as muc, and that's just stock. It costs 1000 times as much as the stock Badger MkII.

Finally, your idea for a built in Damage Control Effect, there is a reason this bonus does not exist on any hull on the TQ server. The reason is not, "Nobody thought of it before!".

This is what l want to see.

CCP Video, The Butterfly Effect

Right now, this has the potential of happening with Mining Barges.

In the future, I (In my opinion) would want this to happen with transports too. I really could care less about a highsec suicide ganker having one less ship they can blow up solo, when they have two choices in that tier (the Cargo Transport with High EHP, and the Fast Transport, with low EHP). This concept was applied to Mining Barges due to Hulkageddon. If you are solo, and want to highsec gank a barge, the Skiff is probably not the ship you are aiming for.. Can you. Sure, but you will have to expend more resources than the potential ship is worth (Utilizing your reasoning above). But now, you don't have just 1 mining barge, you have 3 (not including the Exhumers). The Retriever can be blown up solo.. yup. The Covetor.. Oh yea.

Currently there really is not any small gang options for shipping, that is also including protection of such ships. Do I expect this ship to stand up to a 100 man gatecamp. No. Do I expect this ship to survive against a "modest" camp, or a small gang for 1 to 2 minutes, with the possibility of either it caling for help, or someone deciding to fight off the attackers (aka via the video above). Yes.

Can it currently be done in eve the way the T1 Indys are set? No.

I do not agree with how the T1 industrials functions right now. Someone finds you, scans you, says "Ooh", and the next 3 seconds, the ship is ashes.

We should be aiming towards the vision of Eve as a whole. We are looking to create new gameplay options for players.

But to be concrete, lets break down the video itself.

It is a mining barge, it is being assaulted. The level of the space this conflict occur's is not mentioned, be it high, low, null. Whether the miner's corp is at war, we do not know. All we know is that the Miner is under attack, and there is no concord to be seen. A 3rd party happens to intervene, and fight off the agressors. We learned 3 things.

1) The Mining Barge is a Coveter that somehow had a viable tank for that day an age (but lets apply it to now, lets say it is a Procurer or a Skiff, which would generally be able to survive an attack like this for oh.. 2 minutes). We all know the Covetor would be dust by now. And before we say "no one would take out a mining barge and ....." We ALL have guys in our corporations who Would Do that, Will Do that, and Continue to Do that Even when told.. Don't Do It.

2) The pilot actually has enough time to intervene before the ship is destroyed.

3) The Mining Barge Pilot had enough time to call for help, and theoretically was enough time for help to arrive.

Lets apply it to the designs I am asking for.

You are hauling equipment for a POS your corp has. Your corporation has been at war for some time. You have a team of people on standby to help with the escort mission. Your team looks like this.

1 Cargo Transport, 1 logistic ship, 2 combat ships, 1 scout. 5 People total.

You run 3 gates, and your Scout notifies you of a gate camp of 4 wartargets at the next gate. With the current ingame settings, you have 1 choice.

1) Dock up, call for help.

Applying what I set out here, you now have more choices:

1) Dock up, call for help
2) Try to break through the gatecamp and outrun it
3) Try to take out the gatecamp.

Now its suicidal to actually consider taking a industrial into the middle of a gatecamp, but this damn ship has 60,000 ehp. Even if they decide to target it and blow it up first, it would take them a while to do it, by that time, you'd have oblitherated their entire camp. You actually can fly the damn thing along with your forces into the camp. Your group decides to be Chuck Norris and fly the entire group into the camp and take it out, if not take it out, get them to run.

You fly in. Now the gatecamp has some choices. The gate camp is 4 people, vs 5 (if you include the scout). They have some choices to make.

1) Who to web
2) Who to warp scramble
3) Who is the bigger prize
4) Who should we target first, the industrial, or the combat ships
5) Do we withdraw and reingage
6) Will we win?

Options and choices are created. Yes I know that people like using shipping services which remove their issue with shipping stuff back and forth, especially during a war, and most also use OOC haulers for things like this, but this also creates logistical concepts for them. Now to the naysayers who would state: This is stupid no one would run a industrial through a gatecamp. If you review the video above, realistically, what happened in there does not happen either.

There is the potential for it to happen. CCP recently allowed what is in that Video to have the potential to happen by changing the EHP of one of the barges. They can expand that concept and make it have the potential to happen on a greater scale, by adjusting one of the most widely utilized methods in the game at this time... Moving Cargo and Shipping Stuff.

Also for the naysayers who say "The Freigher has more EHP than your ship and this never happens", that is because generally, intelligent people will not put a 1.5 billion isk ship in such a compromised position.

Something like the Procurer is worth about 7 to 8 Million, with modules, 15 to 20 mil. If they get caught.. it is not a big loss of investment. A Orca/Freighter is. These new Industrials would not be a huge loss, the potential of pirates gaining its wealth or stopping its mission increases, and people begin to participate in more riskier gameplay, by taking the chance that they can get their delivery done, utilizing a Transport that can survive for more than 3 seconds verses 1 destroyer, and giving your team a chance to defend it.

he was refering to a high-sec gate gank, rather than low or null.

...oh and before iI forget; "I couldn't agree more."

Well we all look past minor details in order to play a game. If the main and only option to perform a basic service is to use somebody else to do it... why attempt to do anything yourself. Its the same as if you want to go to war with someone... instead of you doing it, you hire a mercenary group to do it.

If you do not want to mine, you hire other people to do it for you or buy it off them.
Don't want to manufacture, hire someone else to produce what you want.
Don't want to sell it, use somebody else to do it for you.
Don't want to move equipment yourself.. use somebody else.

If the only viable option to performing any basic task is to use somebody else for the sole basis of being insured that it will get accomplished (and if not, you make money off their failure)... why play? We need to bring the incentive of doing something like carry cargo on your own. We've done that with mining, we are doing that with combat. Was every move towards going in this direction ridiculed, yelled at, and called an idiotic move. You betcha. Because I know that people hate the concept of change that does not benefit themselves or seems (foreign) is the reason I believe in these concepts.

I remember when people started screaming for Mining Barge changes due to Hulkageddon, and the majority of the forum goers basically told them "Learn how to play" (essentially what the poster's above allege to in their replies, in addition to the general name calling that comes along with "Learn how to play, you suck" posts, which is normal for a forum like Eve, especially when it is in reply to a controversial concept, such as a higher EHP on a Cargo Hauler).

I believe the below would be what people generally believe should be done, regarding the future of T1 Industrials.

1) Does each race need a Fast Trasport type Hauler (within respects to its speed and align time being restricted based on the amount it can haul, generally to be around the 10,000m3 range. Yes.

2) Does each race need a Cargo Transporter type Hauler, which is a midgap between the above Fast Transport's capacity of 10,000m3 and the Commonly Used Orca, which has an approximate max of around 90,000m3. Yes.

People believe the above 2 statements are true. The below 2 statements are the questionable ideas.

1) Should a T1 industrial have in any respects, a tank? What should it be (where should this tank have EHP wise)? Should it be built into the ship, or module based, and if so, where should those modules/fits be like?

2) Should a T1 (and lets focus on T1) exceed 49,999 (at 50,000, it could hold a battleship)

3) Should a T1 have to sacrifice its cargo capacity, for tank, and if so, what should those figures be. The reasoning for this question is that there are examples on both ends regarding tank and cargo capacity. Currently, many T1's require a loss in capacity to fit a tank, but the freighter has no such issue with cargo capacity vs tank because its tank is built into the freighter, so is its cargo capacity.

I have my figures set, I stand by them. Comment on how you would answer the three questions above.

The debate continues !!!!!

See above. We love "constructive" feedback :-)

And thank you for your bump, and your support for my ideas.

a frankly obnoxious use of the 'u dnt like change because ur stuck in ur ways' remark. do u really assume that every idea has been put down because ppl dnt like change?

my new idea is that asteroids now shoot lasers at anyone trying to mine them. the lasers do 1000 dps. if u dnt like my idea its because u dnt like change. it has nothing to do with how bloody awful the idea is...



'learn to play' was the appropriate response there. CCP eventually gave in after a decade of whining from miners who couldn't bare to fit tanks to their barges. pre-change, exhumers were capable of tanking respectable amounts of dps if u could only be bothered to fit a tank. CCP eventually came up with the idea of ORE bays that removed their ability to fit for max cargo only, and pretty much forced them to utilise their rigs for tanks. except even now, some miners still refuse to thank their barges. it was never the fault of the ship, it was the pilots that let themselves be ganked (imagine a public event where industrials are targeted, and ppl still undocked and tried to mine...clever).

even then, the reason for changing the barges was not to buff their tank. it was because the hulk was the only barge in use. the skiff and mack were so poor in comparison they were barely seen in belts. so CCP gave them roles, buffed some characteristics, but nerfed others.

taking the hulk specifically, it lost some yield, it lost a hell of a lot of hold and received a minor boost to tank. personally i'd say it wasnt buffed at all. and there are plenty of threads here saying its crap, (admittedly by ppl using it wrong, again L2P).

ur idea on the other hand is just buffing everything rather than giving it roles. ur max capacity hauler must suffer something for such huge capacity, and it WILL be tank.

if u want a tanked hauler, then ask for a hauler designed around tanking. but i bet u ppl will tell u it needs to sacrifice capacity and speed.

No, the true dialog is whether or not you have the experience and understanding of Eve to be taken seriously. Are you anything more than a highsec bear? Have you spent time in W-space, null, and lowsec? Until those questions are answered this isn't a conversation or a thread about anything. Just some fanciful meanderings that someone thought up while mining.