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Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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Author
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#741 - 2013-02-12 11:54:35 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:

I wish CCP would answer it with a yes. Reimburse people who have BS - V. Many people only have it because its a prerequisite for capitals. If they're changing the prerequisite they need to reimburse those with more than the prerequisite, especially in this case.

Geez Louise. You aren't losing anything with the prereq changes.

Asking for reimbursement for BS V makes as much sense as graduating from a university, working in your field for a decade and then asking for a tuition refund for a few credit hours when your university changes the prereqs to one of the courses you took.

edit: removed quote spam


You miss the point here. What I lose is all that training time spent on something I no longer need as a requirement. I would never have trained those skills had they not been required.
Jungleland Roy
#742 - 2013-02-12 11:58:46 UTC
No SP refund, No Re-map.

2 Years ago I trained a char to fly an orca. I didn't want to mine - I just wanted to have a hauling ship and at the same time I thought what the hell, I can use it to boost mining ops as well. So for 2 years I've had the use of the ship.

Now, if someone had told me 2 years ago that I could wait until Summer 2013 and get the orca without some useless mining skills - would I have waited? - NO! I wanted the ship back then, I skilled accordingly and have had the use of the ship for 2 years.

My only concern would be that due to the new skill changes I had to learn some other skills to get me back to where I am today - and CCP has imo satisfactorily dealt with that problem.

There are only 2 situations where people can feel unfairly treated with this method.

1) The guys who haven't read the forums/devblogs and are now skilling unnecessary skills to get into a ship a few days before the expansion hits. They will be pissed off - but we all know our answer to that one. Eve requires knowledge and keeping up to date on blogs and announcements - so unlucky for you matey.

And 2) The guys who want to fly a ship now but also know that the skill requirements are changing. They either skill unnecessary skills now OR wait for the changes. They have to decide to either do it now or wait for the change depending on how much they want to fly a ship now.

I see no reason for SP refund or re-map.

Roy

_if you could fly it before, you can fly it now. _ Read the Blog.

Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#743 - 2013-02-12 13:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Jungleland Roy wrote:
No SP refund, No Re-map. 2 Years ago I trained a char to fly an orca. I didn't want to mine - I just wanted to have a hauling ship and at the same time I thought what the hell, I can use it to boost mining ops as well. So for 2 years I've had the use of the ship. Now, if someone had told me 2 years ago that I could wait until Summer 2013 and get the orca without some useless mining skills - would I have waited? - NO! I wanted the ship back then, I skilled accordingly and have had the use of the ship for 2 years. My only concern would be that due to the new skill changes I had to learn some other skills to get me back to where I am today - and CCP has imo satisfactorily dealt with that problem. There are only 2 situations where people can feel unfairly treated with this method. 1) The guys who haven't read the forums/devblogs and are now skilling unnecessary skills to get into a ship a few days before the expansion hits. They will be pissed off - but we all know our answer to that one. Eve requires knowledge and keeping up to date on blogs and announcements - so unlucky for you matey. And 2) The guys who want to fly a ship now but also know that the skill requirements are changing. They either skill unnecessary skills now OR wait for the changes. They have to decide to either do it now or wait for the change depending on how much they want to fly a ship now. I see no reason for SP refund or re-map. Roy


So you are saying because your teacher was mean, your children must also deal with a mean teacher to balance the fairness? Rather than using this - in my eyes strange - view on justice, I would prefer to finally give the "Orca people" their deserved skillpoints back. Because, yes the pretext of the skills they trained was changed back then, so they should at some point get the chance to decide, if their character should be able to use orca only or all the other stuff they trained, too. By the way, the Orca requirements change yet again. giving dedicated mining commanders even more skillpoints being wastedly spent.
Again, for characters without specialisation this is no big deal,because they will eventually use the other skills also. This is about the same situation you had to live through with your dedicated character for mining fleet boosts. I believe we all agree that not reimbursing skillpoints was a mistake back then. But making a mistake once, should not be the the reasoning to repeat it over and over again.

CCP is the only MMO-developer to deny respecs/reimburses to their players, if the skilltree is changed. But given their stance on dedicated alt-chars and specialisation, they have more reason than any other company to do just that. EVE is hardcore in many, many ways and one of the few forms to deal with that is to plan ones skilltime ahead - partly for years. In my opinion CCP would win more, if they did not screw players over who dedicate so much planning and enthusiasm to the game they produce.

Actually I believe you can break down skills in EVE to SP/$ or whatever currency, thus giving an edge to loyal customers. That brings me to my believe that it is unfair to give players basicly skillpoints for free (e.g. by giving out free SP for destroyers and bc). I would therefore prefer to to have the same amount of skillpoints before and after the patch.

I personally would prefer to train 6 (or rather like 30, because Jumpfreighter should need racial freighter at 5) additional days to resume flying my Jumpfreighter with my dedicated alt (which now is a usefull skill, thanks to CCP), than have a skill that character will never use and does not need as prereq anymore.

.

Jungleland Roy
#744 - 2013-02-12 13:33:35 UTC
Never mentioned my teacher.

What I said was that If I was told 2 years ago that the skill requirements were changing and I could have waited for the reduced skill requirements (and thus not fly the orca for 2 years) I still would have trained it back then because I wanted to fly the ship.

I have had 2 years use of it and given the choice again even with the knowledge we have now - I still would have trained the ship then and as a result I have had 2 years enjoyment (?) of flying the ship.

The redundant skill is going to sit in my total - but the payoff is that I have had 2 years of use of the ship and that was worth the SP investment I made.

_if you could fly it before, you can fly it now. _ Read the Blog.

Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#745 - 2013-02-12 13:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Jungleland Roy wrote:
Never mentioned my teacher.

What I said was that If I was told 2 years ago that the skill requirements were changing and I could have waited for the reduced skill requirements (and thus not fly the orca for 2 years) I still would have trained it back then because I wanted to fly the ship.

I have had 2 years use of it and given the choice again even with the knowledge we have now - I still would have trained the ship then and as a result I have had 2 years enjoyment (?) of flying the ship.

The redundant skill is going to sit in my total - but the payoff is that I have had 2 years of use of the ship and that was worth the SP investment I made.



But after the changes the question is, what usefull skillpoints you could have aquired instead of the now redundant skillpoints wasted in requirements that were needed in the past. It is unfair that you are stuck with redundant requirements (even if you can still fly the Orca), while a character skilling an Orca today, will have usefull skills on it's path to the Orca and thus reach the same goal faster than you did. So basicly you are voting for shorter skilltimes after the patch, but without any benefit to yourself. I am not that generous. Sorry.

.

Lexmana
#746 - 2013-02-12 13:51:41 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Rommiee wrote:
If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that.


Why wouldn't that be good for the game? More young pilots in caps means more isk leaving the game as they explode, theres too much money in the game now, it has almost not point. Anything that sucks it out thats not related to stupid clone costs is a good thing.

I don't have much problems with young characters exploding in carriers. But, exploding carriers are not an ISK sink. It is a faucet that injects ISK into the game through insurance payouts.

Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#747 - 2013-02-12 13:55:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Lexmana wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Rommiee wrote:
If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that.


Why wouldn't that be good for the game? More young pilots in caps means more isk leaving the game as they explode, theres too much money in the game now, it has almost not point. Anything that sucks it out thats not related to stupid clone costs is a good thing.

I don't have much problems with young characters exploding in carriers. But, exploding carriers are not an ISK sink. It is a faucet that injects ISK into the game through insurance payouts.



Are insurance payouts for carriers that high?

Sitting in a Basilisk: Price 130 mil, payout 54 mil, insurance cost 16 mil.

So an insured Basilisk costs 146 mil, I get 54 mil. 146 - 54 = 92

Do you think the salvage is worth 92 mil? Is the payout ratio for carriers so much higher?

Also loot is not insured, so we have a 50% ISK sink there. (Only 50% drops last I heard at least)

.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#748 - 2013-02-12 15:10:21 UTC
Alright can someone give me the skinny on what I should train now?

I already know I should train bc and dessie5 and make sure I get cruiser 3 for all races.

But what about the other ships? Are they adding any secondary skills such that I should train them now so that I don't have to learn the pointless secondary skills in order to fly them later?

I guess I would like it if we had a list of ships that are getting extra secondary/tertiary skills before you can fly them, and what extra skills will be required for each that aren't required now.

That way I can at least inject the skills that I might be able to now but might not be able to inject later.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#749 - 2013-02-12 15:27:12 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Alright can someone give me the skinny on what I should train now?

I already know I should train bc and dessie5 and make sure I get cruiser 3 for all races.

But what about the other ships? Are they adding any secondary skills such that I should train them now so that I don't have to learn the pointless secondary skills in order to fly them later?

I guess I would like it if we had a list of ships that are getting extra secondary/tertiary skills before you can fly them, and what extra skills will be required for each that aren't required now.

That way I can at least inject the skills that I might be able to now but might not be able to inject later.


There a very colorful pictures in the Devblog to show you the prereqs, I cannot imagine anyone willing to look at all your skills and comparing them to the Devblog and decide what to skill other than you yourself. Sorry man.

.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#750 - 2013-02-12 15:53:30 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Alright can someone give me the skinny on what I should train now?

I already know I should train bc and dessie5 and make sure I get cruiser 3 for all races.

But what about the other ships? Are they adding any secondary skills such that I should train them now so that I don't have to learn the pointless secondary skills in order to fly them later?

I guess I would like it if we had a list of ships that are getting extra secondary/tertiary skills before you can fly them, and what extra skills will be required for each that aren't required now.

That way I can at least inject the skills that I might be able to now but might not be able to inject later.


There a very colorful pictures in the Devblog to show you the prereqs, I cannot imagine anyone willing to look at all your skills and comparing them to the Devblog and decide what to skill other than you yourself. Sorry man.



Its difficult to see from the graphs what new secondary skills are being added.

I don't want someone to look at this character and tell me what i should train.


I just want to know what ship classes are having secondary/tertiary skills added or increased.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#751 - 2013-02-12 16:14:37 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Alright can someone give me the skinny on what I should train now?

I already know I should train bc and dessie5 and make sure I get cruiser 3 for all races.

But what about the other ships? Are they adding any secondary skills such that I should train them now so that I don't have to learn the pointless secondary skills in order to fly them later?

I guess I would like it if we had a list of ships that are getting extra secondary/tertiary skills before you can fly them, and what extra skills will be required for each that aren't required now.

That way I can at least inject the skills that I might be able to now but might not be able to inject later.


There a very colorful pictures in the Devblog to show you the prereqs, I cannot imagine anyone willing to look at all your skills and comparing them to the Devblog and decide what to skill other than you yourself. Sorry man.



Its difficult to see from the graphs what new secondary skills are being added.

I don't want someone to look at this character and tell me what i should train.


I just want to know what ship classes are having secondary/tertiary skills added or increased.


All the ship (-classes) with pictures of changed requirements fit what you seek. Those classes that don't have pictures are already cleared by bc, dessi to 5 and all others to 3.

So you already have the list that you asked for. There is no one who can make it any easier for you.

.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#752 - 2013-02-12 16:21:45 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Alright can someone give me the skinny on what I should train now?

I already know I should train bc and dessie5 and make sure I get cruiser 3 for all races.

But what about the other ships? Are they adding any secondary skills such that I should train them now so that I don't have to learn the pointless secondary skills in order to fly them later?

I guess I would like it if we had a list of ships that are getting extra secondary/tertiary skills before you can fly them, and what extra skills will be required for each that aren't required now.

That way I can at least inject the skills that I might be able to now but might not be able to inject later.


There a very colorful pictures in the Devblog to show you the prereqs, I cannot imagine anyone willing to look at all your skills and comparing them to the Devblog and decide what to skill other than you yourself. Sorry man.



Its difficult to see from the graphs what new secondary skills are being added.

I don't want someone to look at this character and tell me what i should train.


I just want to know what ship classes are having secondary/tertiary skills added or increased.


All the ship (-classes) with pictures of changed requirements fit what you seek. Those classes that don't have pictures are already cleared by bc, dessi to 5 and all others to 3.

So you already have the list that you asked for. There is no one who can make it any easier for you.



I'm not sure what you mean.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#753 - 2013-02-12 16:37:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Cearain wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean.


In the Devblog under the subheadline "Skill changes under the microscope" are many pictures comparing requirements before and after the change.

You have to look at all those pictures, since they basicly very much resemble the list you asked for. Just navigate to the point 'Carriers and Supercarriers:' and below are all shipclasses with changed secondary and tertiary requirements.

.

Deornoth Drake
Vandeo
#754 - 2013-02-12 17:45:43 UTC
Jungleland Roy wrote:
No SP refund, No Re-map.

2 Years ago I trained a char to fly an orca. I didn't want to mine - I just wanted to have a hauling ship and at the same time I thought what the hell, I can use it to boost mining ops as well. So for 2 years I've had the use of the ship.

Now, if someone had told me 2 years ago that I could wait until Summer 2013 and get the orca without some useless mining skills - would I have waited? - NO! I wanted the ship back then, I skilled accordingly and have had the use of the ship for 2 years.

My only concern would be that due to the new skill changes I had to learn some other skills to get me back to where I am today - and CCP has imo satisfactorily dealt with that problem.

There are only 2 situations where people can feel unfairly treated with this method.

1) The guys who haven't read the forums/devblogs and are now skilling unnecessary skills to get into a ship a few days before the expansion hits. They will be pissed off - but we all know our answer to that one. Eve requires knowledge and keeping up to date on blogs and announcements - so unlucky for you matey.

And 2) The guys who want to fly a ship now but also know that the skill requirements are changing. They either skill unnecessary skills now OR wait for the changes. They have to decide to either do it now or wait for the change depending on how much they want to fly a ship now.

I see no reason for SP refund or re-map.

Roy

A about three months ago, my freighter alt started training for the 3 freighters she couldn't fly. So, now she is able to do it, but if I had known that 3 months ago, I wouldn't have trained 3 more racial industrials to lvl V. Hence, I vote for reimbursing soon to be obsolete prerequisits. These changes have not been announced anywhere before while the coming change to BC and destoyers was announced well in advance (thanks for the later one).
DancesWithVeldspar
#755 - 2013-02-12 18:31:40 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:

CCP is the only MMO-developer to deny respecs/reimburses to their players, if the skilltree is changed. But given their stance on dedicated alt-chars and specialisation, they have more reason than any other company to do just that. EVE is hardcore in many, many ways and one of the few forms to deal with that is to plan ones skilltime ahead - partly for years. In my opinion CCP would win more, if they did not screw players over who dedicate so much planning and enthusiasm to the game they produce.

In my experience, Eve is also the only MMO where there isn't a finite number of skill points. If any skill, ship or item is nerfed, you can still do other things as you'll be getting more SP to spend. It is only important to allow respecs when you have a finite number of SP.
Savira Terrant wrote:

It is unfair that you are stuck with redundant requirements (even if you can still fly the Orca), while a character skilling an Orca today, will have usefull skills on it's path to the Orca and thus reach the same goal faster than you did.

You can also still train the required skills if you think them useful. Speed to sitting in an Orca is irreverent as you're already there.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#756 - 2013-02-12 19:09:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
DancesWithVeldspar wrote:

In my experience, Eve is also the only MMO where there isn't a finite number of skill points. If any skill, ship or item is nerfed, you can still do other things as you'll be getting more SP to spend. It is only important to allow respecs when you have a finite number of SP.

You can also still train the required skills if you think them useful. Speed to sitting in an Orca is irreverent as you're already there.



I disagree. With "infinite" skillpoints it is even more important to get respecs, if I am not allowed to alter the time spent on acquiring them by my time being actively online and farming SP - as is the case here. In EVE part of our subscription can directly be translated in "x SP per payment" while we can only make one payment per 30 days.

That in itself and additional other mechanics lead to altchars, which are meant for specific roles they should fulfill, while at the same time not wasting skilltime better spent for another character on the same account. CCP endorses such behavior by even making offers for players with active accounts, just for the purpose of additional specialised characters.

Nerfing does not take place here at all. These are simple changes to the skilltree making skills themselves irrelevant (not nerfed) for the purpose of the ability to fly something. Instead other (now usefull) skills take over their place. So if a character has all the old prereqs and can sit in his beloved ship, he spent time for training now irrelevant skills (for that purpose) and additionally has/had to skill the usefull skills to reach the same usability of a character that started training after or aware of these changes. In other words, old characters are screwed over twice.

Speed is all but irrelevant here, because characters get treated differently (new characters getting a kickstart). That should never happen. Especially with "infinite" skillpoints, aquired at the same pace for all.

.

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#757 - 2013-02-12 19:10:16 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Jungleland Roy wrote:

The redundant skill is going to sit in my total - but the payoff is that I have had 2 years of use of the ship and that was worth the SP investment I made.



But after the changes the question is, what usefull skillpoints you could have aquired instead of the now redundant skillpoints wasted in requirements that were needed in the past. It is unfair that you are stuck with redundant requirements (even if you can still fly the Orca), while a character skilling an Orca today, will have usefull skills on it's path to the Orca and thus reach the same goal faster than you did. So basicly you are voting for shorter skilltimes after the patch, but without any benefit to yourself. I am not that generous. Sorry.


Reading comprehension ftw.

The character skilling an Orca after the patch will have a distinct disadvantae over Roy's Orca Alt: unless we also implement time travel, he will not be able to train at reduced skill times AND have used an Orca for 2 years.

There is another - hopefully the main - reason for no SP reimbursements: It goes completely contrary to EVE's skill/attribute system, where attributes decide your future skill speed. It's all about making sacrifices for having that skill you need NOW rather than LATER.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#758 - 2013-02-12 19:13:03 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Lexmana wrote:

I don't have much problems with young characters exploding in carriers. But, exploding carriers are not an ISK sink. It is a faucet that injects ISK into the game through insurance payouts.



Are insurance payouts for carriers that high?

Sitting in a Basilisk: Price 130 mil, payout 54 mil, insurance cost 16 mil.

So an insured Basilisk costs 146 mil, I get 54 mil. 146 - 54 = 92

Do you think the salvage is worth 92 mil? Is the payout ratio for carriers so much higher?

Also loot is not insured, so we have a 50% ISK sink there. (Only 50% drops last I heard at least)


It takes only a little research and some small measure of brains to realize what an ISK faucet vs. an ISK sink is.

Hint: Ships are not built from ISK.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#759 - 2013-02-12 19:20:10 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
Jungleland Roy wrote:

The redundant skill is going to sit in my total - but the payoff is that I have had 2 years of use of the ship and that was worth the SP investment I made.



But after the changes the question is, what usefull skillpoints you could have aquired instead of the now redundant skillpoints wasted in requirements that were needed in the past. It is unfair that you are stuck with redundant requirements (even if you can still fly the Orca), while a character skilling an Orca today, will have usefull skills on it's path to the Orca and thus reach the same goal faster than you did. So basicly you are voting for shorter skilltimes after the patch, but without any benefit to yourself. I am not that generous. Sorry.


Reading comprehension ftw.

The character skilling an Orca after the patch will have a distinct disadvantae over Roy's Orca Alt: unless we also implement time travel, he will not be able to train at reduced skill times AND have used an Orca for 2 years.

There is another - hopefully the main - reason for no SP reimbursements: It goes completely contrary to EVE's skill/attribute system, where attributes decide your future skill speed. It's all about making sacrifices for having that skill you need NOW rather than LATER.


Reduced skilltimes were hard earned by requirering skills and thus training time "taking away" from your actual training plan, the reimbursement of those skills was the least CCP could do for taking away the reduced training time. Additionally all characters trained at the same pace before and after the patch within then possible boundaries. Also the usage of the Orca is worth nothing, when comparing training time requirements to get a character into an Orca and usable before and after the patch.

.

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#760 - 2013-02-12 19:20:47 UTC
Deornoth Drake wrote:

A about three months ago, my freighter alt started training for the 3 freighters she couldn't fly. So, now she is able to do it, but if I had known that 3 months ago, I wouldn't have trained 3 more racial industrials to lvl V. Hence, I vote for reimbursing soon to be obsolete prerequisits. These changes have not been announced anywhere before while the coming change to BC and destoyers was announced well in advance (thanks for the later one).


You knew 3 months ago that there was a skill patch. If it was that important to you, you could have waited until specifics are known.

Did you petition and get a GM's answer that nothing will change regarding the freighter skill requirements? That's the only scenario that would really justify a reimbursement and I find it a bit unlikely.