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A Hypothetical Skill Question, Would This Be Fair?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#61 - 2013-02-12 18:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Ok, lets break this down even further and see if it makes more sense to people.

So the reason that people train a skill is for some given benefit.
…and the benfits provided will not change. It's as simple as that. There is one veeeeeery tiny edge case where you might lose out — you have every prereq for Orca trained but refuse to inject the actual Industrial Commandship skill until after the patch. I'm sorry, but no — your refusal to spend one second to maintain your advantage is not grounds for reimbursement either.

By the way, stop being ignorant by skipping over facts that ruin your point:
Quote:
All of those are tangible benefits which can be measured.

- In the drone example the DI skill gives the benefit listed in "a"

- In the mining barge example the skill gives the benefit listed in "b"
Incorrect. In the mining barge example, the skill gives the benefits a, b, and c… Oh, and a and c are the same benefit. Oh, and the people who want a reimbursement has already used the b-advantage and don't lose anything. Oh, and they get a bigger bang for their buck than the people who want the same advantages after the patch.

Quote:
Almost correct, you are slowly getting there but not quite.
No, he was entirely correct, and only your continual refusal to include all the details (dismissing it as being pedantic) makes you misidentify correct things as incorrect. In reality, it's your omission that makes your conclusions incorrect.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#62 - 2013-02-12 18:21:17 UTC
Mag's wrote:
You haven't yet provided a valid reason why this change would happen. Also you seem to not know, that this skill was already changed from it's original purpose. I accepted the change and didn't cry for my SP back. How odd.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#63 - 2013-02-12 18:22:18 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
So DI III or IV would still be a useful skill as it would give a mining boost to drones, but everyone would get the 100% combat bonus.

So you take an advantage away from certain people (those who had trained a skill to V) and give it to everyone (those who had never trained, or only trained to a lesser level).

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Mining barge V would still be useful in so far that you can fly a mining barge, although everyone would get access to industrial command without it.

People can train Industrial Command Ships after meeting the prerequisites, but anyone who trained it before the change would not lose their ability to fly mining barges at the highest level.

There are some serious differences here! Ugh

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#64 - 2013-02-12 18:24:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Ok, lets break this down even further and see if it makes more sense to people.

So the reason that people train a skill is for some given benefit.
…and the benfits provided will not change. It's as simple as that. There is one veeeeeery tiny edge case where you might lose out — you have every prereq for Orca trained but refuse to inject the actual Industrial Commandship skill until after the patch. I'm sorry, but no — your refusal to spend one second to maintain your advantage is not grounds for reimbursement either.

By the way, stop being ignorant by skipping over facts that ruin your point:
Quote:
All of those are tangible benefits which can be measured.

- In the drone example the DI skill gives the benefit listed in "a"

- In the mining barge example the skill gives the benefit listed in "b"
Incorrect. In the mining barge example, the skill gives the benefits a, b, and c… Oh, and a and c are the same benefit. Oh, and the people who want a reimbursement has already used the b-advantage and don't lose anything. Oh, and they get a bigger bang for their buck than the people who want the same advantages after the patch.


Ok, so you clearly understood the post where I broke the argument down into the fundamental parts, but are still not quite grasping the overall picture.

You spoke about the mining barge giving the benefits listed in A, B, and C, so that is correct. After the changes one of the benefits, the benefit B, the ability to train a further skill is removed and given to the whole community, although other benefits still remain.

In the drone example you get the benefits A and B, and then after the change one of the benefits listed under the category A, the benefit of increasing combat drone attributes by 100% is removed and given to the entire community, although the other benefits still remain.

There is some point though in there which you are either failing to grasp, or ignoring to suit your own argument, or disagreeing with. Either of which though has no rational basis.
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2013-02-12 18:28:11 UTC
Still butthurt about the orca skill change? Lol

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#66 - 2013-02-12 18:29:02 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
Still butthurt about the orca skill change? Lol
Orca skill change, the best change. Hell, who wants to be stuck with the barge skill in your head? LolLol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#67 - 2013-02-12 18:29:44 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
There are some serious differences here! Ugh


Haha, no no no no! You are just not grasping this at all.

Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
So DI III or IV would still be a useful skill as it would give a mining boost to drones, but everyone would get the 100% combat bonus.

So you take an advantage away from certain people (those who had trained a skill to V) and give it to everyone (those who had never trained, or only trained to a lesser level).


This ^^ what you wrote above is correct, and this applies in both situations.

Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Mining barge V would still be useful in so far that you can fly a mining barge, although everyone would get access to industrial command without it.

People can train Industrial Command Ships after meeting the prerequisites, but anyone who trained it before the change would not lose their ability to fly mining barges at the highest level.


^^ This is correct also, and it is correct in both situations! You would not lose your 100% combat drone damage either!
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#68 - 2013-02-12 18:30:04 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Jake Warbird wrote:
Still butthurt about the orca skill change? Lol
Orca skill change, the best change. Hell, who wants to be stuck with the barge skill in your head? LolLol

You bastard.... Sad

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#69 - 2013-02-12 18:31:06 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Jake Warbird wrote:
Still butthurt about the orca skill change? Lol
Orca skill change, the best change. Hell, who wants to be stuck with the barge skill in your head? LolLol

You bastard.... Sad
You love me really. PTwisted

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#70 - 2013-02-12 18:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Haha, no no no no! You are just not grasping this at all.

Are you... going hysterical on us? I understand this thread is a hilarious trainwreck but please try to keep your composure.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
^^ This is correct also, and it is correct in both situations! You would not lose your 100% combat drone damage either!

Yes, but if I had trained it to level V, any advantage I had over people who had trained it to III or IV would be lost. Not so with the prerequisite change, since I can still fly mining barges at the highest level.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2013-02-12 18:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Ok, so you clearly understood the post where I broke the argument down into the fundamental parts, but are still not quite grasping the overall picture.
The overall picture is easy to grasp:

Nothing changes for people who skilled for Orca. There is nothing to reimburse.

Very very simple.

Quote:
You spoke about the mining barge giving the benefits listed in A, B, and C, so that is correct.
No, it's not. It's actually A and B since C doesn't exist.
In the case of mining barges, it still provides A and B.
If all you were interested in was A, then so what if B changes.
If all you were interested in was B, then guess what? Nothing changes. Inject that skill and be done with it — the skill has now served its purpose.

After the change, those who trained the skill for the actual benefit C — getting the ship skills unlocked by benefit B — will still have benefit C since they unlocked those ship skills. Nothing changes.

All of this is different from the Drone Interfacing example where the advantage you trained for is being removed. Nothing of the kind happens in the Mining Barge case. That's why the DI change would warrant a reimbursement and the Orca change does not — because the former entails a loss of a skilled-for advantage and the latter does not (in fact, the latter gives you even more advantage than before).
Quote:
This is correct also, and it is correct in both situations! You would not lose your 100% combat drone damage either!
…but they would lose their advantage, unlike the people who trained for Orca, which is why the former would warrant a reimbursement and the Orca change does not.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#72 - 2013-02-12 18:35:03 UTC
Mag's wrote:
You love me really. PTwisted

It's only my alt. Besides, you'd still have to train Mining Foreman to sit in an Orca, and how embarrassing would that be for a -10? Twisted

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Myrissa Kistel
Planetary Logistics
#73 - 2013-02-12 18:35:13 UTC
I am really trying to understand why a few of the orca pilots are ticked. Is it because you feel like you wasted some time? Thats really the issue isn't?
Here are some logical questions

1. Can you fly an orca now?

2. Can you fly a mining barge now?

3. Will you be able to fly an orca when the requirments change?

4. Will you be able to fly a mining barge when the requirments change?

Why should you get skill points back if you are not losing any abilities? That is were this impass is coming from.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#74 - 2013-02-12 18:36:45 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Haha, no no no no! You are just not grasping this at all.

Are you... going hysterical on us? I understand this thread is a hilarious trainwreck but please try to keep your composure.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
^^ This is correct also, and it is correct in both situations! You would not lose your 100% combat drone damage either!

Yes, but if I had trained it to level V, any advantage I had over people who had trained it to III or IV would be lost. Not so with the prerequisite change, since I can still fly mining barges at the highest level.


Yes, heh I think I am going crazy. This task is like trying to get school children to learn algebra. I think Ill give up and wait for more sensible people to read this thread.
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2013-02-12 18:36:46 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Haha, no no no no! You are just not grasping this at all.

Are you... going hysterical on us? I understand this thread is a hilarious trainwreck but please try to keep your composure.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
^^ This is correct also, and it is correct in both situations! You would not lose your 100% combat drone damage either!

Yes, but if I had trained it to level V, any advantage I had over people who had trained it to III or IV would be lost. Not so with the prerequisite change, since I can still fly mining barges at the highest level.

No no no... Karl, you're going about this the wrong way,mate... Do you think making sense is allowed in this here thread?

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2013-02-12 18:38:18 UTC
The only case in which one loses any advantage gained by training Mining Barge 5 is if they train it and then do not, between when they finish MB 5 and when the summer expansion hits, inject the Industrial Command Ships skill (assuming they have the other prerequisites). Given that there are several months between now and then, you have all the time you need to do this.

Even if you don't, regaining the ability would only require less than a day (and at fastest speed less than half a day) to train ORE Industrial 3.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#77 - 2013-02-12 18:38:47 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Haha, no no no no! You are just not grasping this at all.

Are you... going hysterical on us? I understand this thread is a hilarious trainwreck but please try to keep your composure.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
^^ This is correct also, and it is correct in both situations! You would not lose your 100% combat drone damage either!

Yes, but if I had trained it to level V, any advantage I had over people who had trained it to III or IV would be lost. Not so with the prerequisite change, since I can still fly mining barges at the highest level.

No no no... Karl, you're going about this the wrong way,mate... Do you think making sense is allowed in this here thread?


Hey, its not my fault if you people don't understand basic logical thinking. ;)

Guess I shouldn't of expected much more from most of the daytime jobless american forum trolls on here.

Well at least the idea is sound for other more sensible ones to read it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#78 - 2013-02-12 18:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Myrissa Kistel wrote:
Here are some logical questions

1. Can you fly an orca now?
2. Can you fly a mining barge now?
3. Will you be able to fly an orca when the requirments change?
4. Will you be able to fly a mining barge when the requirments change?

Why should you get skill points back if you are not losing any abilities? That is were this impass is coming from.
Ther's also a kind of 1a that ties into question 3: will you, between now and the change, be able to inject the Industrial Commandship skill? As mentioned, there is a very very unlikely edge case that can easily be remedied by spending two mouse-clicks to inject that skillbook, and that time expenditure pretty much removes any need to compensate for that edge case.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Hey, its not my fault if you people don't understand basic logical thinking. ;)
We understand it perfectly. The problem is that you're not applying it, mainly by making such assertions as saying that not losing an advantage is the same as losing an advantage.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2013-02-12 18:39:59 UTC
this hysterical whining by Highsec Big Gay Babbies over part of the game that's utterly normal to normal eve players is proof positive of what we've said all along, highsec big gay babbies whine relentlessly over anything and must be scourged without mercy

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Ronix Aideron
Zymurgy Corp.
#80 - 2013-02-12 18:40:06 UTC
Yes, in before the lock or merge!!!

Start the day off slow and taper off from there.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Ronix_Aideron