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T2 Shuttles -- Make them a Reality
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Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-02-12 15:38:05 UTC
Simple idea: swap the 10 m3 of storage for the ability for the auto-pilot to warp to 0 on gates and stations. Balanced in that your trading speed and safety for the loss of all storage -- so you can only use that increased safety to move yourself.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2 - 2013-02-12 15:46:58 UTC
Go buy an interceptor and fit it up with istabs, and warp speed rigs. You now have a t2 shuttle.
GrayVon
Gray Corp
#3 - 2013-02-12 15:51:17 UTC
This would be a cool factor ship .. but I would rather see the hold down to 5 M3 and increase the speed.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-02-12 15:58:56 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Go buy an interceptor and fit it up with istabs, and warp speed rigs. You now have a t2 shuttle.


I think there's design space without doing that. Besides you still wouldn't get warp to 0.... and the idea is that you wouldn't need to train anything for T2 shuttles. Why should I have to specialize in Interceptors and Warp Core Stabilizers just to get this concept?
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#5 - 2013-02-12 16:00:05 UTC
Whow... this is really a waste of ressources.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#6 - 2013-02-12 16:07:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
1. do not fly something that you cannot afford to lose.
2. do not use autopilot

Still not sure about new ship, but we could use a new navigation skills for:
- warp speed increase (+10% warp speed per lvl).
- reducing proximity of warp during autopilot (-10% per lvl).

^ still leaves a chance to be ganked but shortens travel time on autopilot by alot.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Hevlikn Ilunar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-02-12 16:08:00 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
you wouldn't need to train anything for T2 shuttles.


T2 ship; no training. What?
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-02-12 16:18:54 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
1. do not fly something that you cannot afford to lose.
2. do not use autopilot

Still not sure about new ship, but we could use a new navigation skills for:
- warp speed increase (+10% warp speed per lvl).
- reducing proximity of warp during autopilot (-10% per lvl).

^ still leaves a chance to be ganked but shortens travel time on autopilot by alot.


One, if auto-pilot isn't supposed to be used, why have it in the design space? If it is supposed to be used, then you can play around with the design and interactions a bit.

The shuttles would probably be expensive, but it's more about speed, than safety. Mostly they would also need to fix the acceleration issues with ships where faster warp times just means you spend one to two less seconds at max warp because the rest is all accelerating and decelerating.

The idea of having a specific ship for this is so that you fly from place to place quickly. Cutting down the extra 15km / 625m/s = 24 seconds per jump would be quite nice, but I think you shouldn't be able to do that and carry cargo.

So let's say I want to adjust the prices of something in another region 25 jumps away (50 jumps round trip). My options are to sit there and do what is probably one of the most boring activities in the game -- mindless gate jumping or add an additional 20 minutes to my trip -- fun. Or I could make 4M mining solo with a Retriever.

The fact that the auto-pilot can't jump to 0 is asinine from a story perspective. So the limitation is only there for mechanics reasons. I'm not sure why the game designers can't make something that interacts with that game mechanic.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-02-12 16:22:08 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
1. do not fly something that you cannot afford to lose.
2. do not use autopilot

Still not sure about new ship, but we could use a new navigation skills for:
- warp speed increase (+10% warp speed per lvl).
- reducing proximity of warp during autopilot (-10% per lvl).

^ still leaves a chance to be ganked but shortens travel time on autopilot by alot.


One, if auto-pilot isn't supposed to be used, why have it in the design space? If it is supposed to be used, then you can play around with the design and interactions a bit.

The shuttles would probably be expensive, but it's more about speed, than safety. Mostly they would also need to fix the acceleration issues with ships where faster warp times just means you spend one to two less seconds at max warp because the rest is all accelerating and decelerating.

The idea of having a specific ship for this is so that you fly from place to place quickly. Cutting down the extra 15km / 625m/s = 24 seconds per jump would be quite nice, but I think you shouldn't be able to do that and carry cargo.

So let's say I want to adjust the prices of something in another region 25 jumps away (50 jumps round trip). My options are to sit there and do what is probably one of the most boring activities in the game -- mindless gate jumping or add an additional 20 minutes to my trip -- fun. Or I could make 4M mining solo with a Retriever.

The fact that the auto-pilot can't jump to 0 is asinine from a story perspective. So the limitation is only there for mechanics reasons. I'm not sure why the game designers can't make something that interacts with that game mechanic.


It's called Game Balance. You're trading the time you could have saved for the convenience of not having to fly your ship manually. Why should you get to save that time AND not have to do anything yourself?

Also, T2 ship with no training requirements > lolwut?

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-02-12 16:24:39 UTC
Hevlikn Ilunar wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
you wouldn't need to train anything for T2 shuttles.


T2 ship; no training. What?


I guess you could make a Fast Shuttle skill. I guess each level would reduce the distance to gate.

Fast Shuttles -- 20% reduction per level to warp to distance (from 15km)
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-02-12 16:26:35 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
1. do not fly something that you cannot afford to lose.
2. do not use autopilot

Still not sure about new ship, but we could use a new navigation skills for:
- warp speed increase (+10% warp speed per lvl).
- reducing proximity of warp during autopilot (-10% per lvl).

^ still leaves a chance to be ganked but shortens travel time on autopilot by alot.


One, if auto-pilot isn't supposed to be used, why have it in the design space? If it is supposed to be used, then you can play around with the design and interactions a bit.

The shuttles would probably be expensive, but it's more about speed, than safety. Mostly they would also need to fix the acceleration issues with ships where faster warp times just means you spend one to two less seconds at max warp because the rest is all accelerating and decelerating.

The idea of having a specific ship for this is so that you fly from place to place quickly. Cutting down the extra 15km / 625m/s = 24 seconds per jump would be quite nice, but I think you shouldn't be able to do that and carry cargo.

So let's say I want to adjust the prices of something in another region 25 jumps away (50 jumps round trip). My options are to sit there and do what is probably one of the most boring activities in the game -- mindless gate jumping or add an additional 20 minutes to my trip -- fun. Or I could make 4M mining solo with a Retriever.

The fact that the auto-pilot can't jump to 0 is asinine from a story perspective. So the limitation is only there for mechanics reasons. I'm not sure why the game designers can't make something that interacts with that game mechanic.


It's called Game Balance. You're trading the time you could have saved for the convenience of not having to fly your ship manually. Why should you get to save that time AND not have to do anything yourself?

Also, T2 ship with no training requirements > lolwut?


Because flying long distances manually isn't fun. It's just not fun. As for game balance, you've giving up cargo space and probably some level of cost for the privilege.

And if you had a T2 shuttle skill I would imagine it's what would control the warp to distance reduction (see above post). Not having a skill for it is a reasonable issue.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-02-12 16:27:53 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Hevlikn Ilunar wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
you wouldn't need to train anything for T2 shuttles.


T2 ship; no training. What?


I guess you could make a Fast Shuttle skill. I guess each level would reduce the distance to gate.

Fast Shuttles -- 20% reduction per level to warp to distance (from 15km)



yea cause we need another skill to train.
Luc Chastot
#13 - 2013-02-12 16:28:31 UTC
I didn't laugh, I guess you have to improve as a comedian.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#14 - 2013-02-12 16:28:38 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Hevlikn Ilunar wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
you wouldn't need to train anything for T2 shuttles.


T2 ship; no training. What?


I guess you could make a Fast Shuttle skill. I guess each level would reduce the distance to gate.

Fast Shuttles -- 20% reduction per level to warp to distance (from 15km)


I think CCP stated some time ago, if you want to fly fast then do it manually. AFK travel should be always slower than manual travel. Therefore I suppose this has no chance to get implemented.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-02-12 16:35:30 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
Hevlikn Ilunar wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
you wouldn't need to train anything for T2 shuttles.


T2 ship; no training. What?


I guess you could make a Fast Shuttle skill. I guess each level would reduce the distance to gate.

Fast Shuttles -- 20% reduction per level to warp to distance (from 15km)


I think CCP stated some time ago, if you want to fly fast then do it manually. AFK travel should be always slower than manual travel. Therefore I suppose this has no chance to get implemented.


For the most part I agree with that. I'm not suggesting that any other ship gets this benefit. But what I feel that the question most people haven't addressed is why this shouldn't be allowed other than to say we should all have to sit and trudge through boring activity. The 20 minute is what's extra. So my options are 30-40 minutes of boring activity or 50-60 minutes of letting it do something for me. So we end up with this extra penalty for what exactly? All that said, I wouldn't mind if this only worked in hi-sec. But I feel at least it should get discussed and not just dismissed out-of-hand because we've always done it this way.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#16 - 2013-02-12 16:42:13 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Simple idea: swap the 10 m3 of storage for the ability for the auto-pilot to warp to 0 on gates and stations. Balanced in that your trading speed and safety for the loss of all storage -- so you can only use that increased safety to move yourself.


Why should Autopilot be completely safe. Stop being lazy.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#17 - 2013-02-12 17:02:32 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
So my options are 30-40 minutes of boring activity or 50-60 minutes of letting it do something for me. So we end up with this extra penalty for what exactly? All that said, I wouldn't mind if this only worked in hi-sec. But I feel at least it should get discussed and not just dismissed out-of-hand because we've always done it this way.

You wont have to do 30-40 min of boring activity if you fly manually. You get this extra penalty for being AFK and an ability to do something productive (or not) in RL during that time.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-02-12 17:20:24 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
So my options are 30-40 minutes of boring activity or 50-60 minutes of letting it do something for me. So we end up with this extra penalty for what exactly? All that said, I wouldn't mind if this only worked in hi-sec. But I feel at least it should get discussed and not just dismissed out-of-hand because we've always done it this way.

You wont have to do 30-40 min of boring activity if you fly manually. You get this extra penalty for being AFK and an ability to do something productive (or not) in RL during that time.


I can do the math for you when I get back to a place I can actually run it, but yeah, it's about 30 minutes to make 50 jumps with max velocity skills in a shuttle -- all flying manually. More if you don't have good navigation skills. But I imagine it all depends on how quickly you jump on that button to warp to next (actually wanted a shortcut key for warp to + gate/dock next object in autopilot route).

You might be able to do it in as little as 20 minutes, but that's not exactly what I've found. Either way, it is definitely an extra 20 min. penalty for the autopilot not being able to warp to 0 for shuttles with max velocity (625m/s).
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-02-12 17:30:13 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
Hevlikn Ilunar wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
you wouldn't need to train anything for T2 shuttles.


T2 ship; no training. What?


I guess you could make a Fast Shuttle skill. I guess each level would reduce the distance to gate.

Fast Shuttles -- 20% reduction per level to warp to distance (from 15km)


I think CCP stated some time ago, if you want to fly fast then do it manually. AFK travel should be always slower than manual travel. Therefore I suppose this has no chance to get implemented.


For the most part I agree with that. I'm not suggesting that any other ship gets this benefit. But what I feel that the question most people haven't addressed is why this shouldn't be allowed other than to say we should all have to sit and trudge through boring activity. The 20 minute is what's extra. So my options are 30-40 minutes of boring activity or 50-60 minutes of letting it do something for me. So we end up with this extra penalty for what exactly? All that said, I wouldn't mind if this only worked in hi-sec. But I feel at least it should get discussed and not just dismissed out-of-hand because we've always done it this way.



EVE is a big place. That is a good thing. It should take awhile to move around large distances.

I've always thought part of the no autopilot warp to 0 is also cap. Try flying a shuttle manually, especially at lower SP, and eventually you cap it out when you hit a big system. The time it takes to fly the 15km recharges cap.

AP with a shuttle now is pretty fast anyhow.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-02-12 17:41:10 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:

..snip..

EVE is a big place. That is a good thing. It should take awhile to move around large distances.

I've always thought part of the no autopilot warp to 0 is also cap. Try flying a shuttle manually, especially at lower SP, and eventually you cap it out when you hit a big system. The time it takes to fly the 15km recharges cap.

AP with a shuttle now is pretty fast anyhow.


It's certainly faster than anything else, and frankly fixing the fact that faster ships don't accelerate faster would help alleviate this problem. As it is the shuttle doesn't get much benefit from it's 6.0 warp speed.

And, I love the fact that Eve is big and it takes forever to get around with all other classes of ships. It's necessary for the economy to work. If you could get from Jita to Rens in two seconds with cargo there wouldn't be two economies, there would be one.

But that said, there is design space for something that tweaks with the rules a bit. People seem to think we should be forced to do boring activities like fly a shuttle from one end of the galaxy to the other manually. But a shuttle doesn't have modules or rigs and doesn't really cost anything so really the only reason to blow one up is because you want to get CONCORDed. There's no money it in and @20-50k per shuttle you're not hurting anyone. I guess you could then pod them too, but it seems a pretty narrow reason to force me and others to do something boring for twenty minutes. Maybe they could make warping and flying around more enjoyable, but as it is it's just not fun in hi sec.
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