EVE General Discussion

It is actually worrying when a dev says that, because it could indicate that he may have lost the plot and now keeps telling himself and everyone that he is still playing the game... still playing the game... must play the game... keep playing it... I am playing it...

Nope, nothing was taken away. They didn't lose anything but time and a number from their SP. In fact, in using examples many of you people used, say suddenly everyone got free internet. Should those that pay for it suddenly get refunded everything they ever paid for internet? They reaped the benefits before everyone else, but now its no longer exclusive to them.

Is this a good example? Hell no. But then neither are any of the other real life examples people are trying to use to argue their points. Hint to some people in the thread. Its a game, not life. If it took all aspects off of life, you wouldn't like it very long.

Anyways, more to the point, if you don't like the reasoning I'm using, quit using it yourself and maybe there can be some actual discussion where you present arguments that aren't weighted purely by bias rather than me having to occaisonally toss that ammo out myself?



Aaand again can be applied to removed learning skills. They made the choice to train those skills, they never lost anything. Them being removed makes no difference to the state of things just like the ship tree revamp makes no difference.

…aside from the meta-game advantage the learning skills provided. In fact, it was that advantage that eventually caused them to be removed. Unlike in the case of the Orca skill tree revamp, where no advantage is being removed — everything stays the same for everyone involved.

…except for the fact that a game mechanic and a meta-game advantage was removed in the process — something that does not happen in this case. The time they had spent was removed from the game; nothing gets removed from the people who have trained for Orca.

So sure, besides that core point — which means it's not applicable to learning skills — it can be applied to learning skills too.

The balance was that while the people that had trained learning skills (pretty much everyone) got SP to reallocate, characters created after they were removed got a lot better base stats than the characters created before their removal.

…except that they didn't lose any time due to the reimbursement. What they did lose was a meta-game advantage as the mechanic that provided that advantage was removed from the game (and no, having everyone be at the same level is not the same thing as keeping your advantage — quite the opposite, in fact). Without compensation, the time spent getting this advantage would have been flushed down a black hole. This was deemed unacceptable so they got the time back. The advantage was gone, but the game was better for it so it was an acceptable trade-off.

…except that nothing is lost — no advantage, no mechanic, nothing. As such, the time spent is not lost, and thus there is no grounds for compensating it. The game is also better for it, so we're not even talking about a trade-off here — just straight up improvement.

One had their time investment into an advantage nullified because it no longer provided that advantage; the other had their time investment still do the same thing (regardless of whether they took advantage of it or not). One got SP to make up for that nullification; the other get nothing because nothing is lost.

So you're saying that people who trained the learning skills still train faster than the ones who didn't?

…because that was the effect, and it was indeed removed. The removal of exactly that effect was the entire reason why the skill removal happened.

No, the advantage of increased attribute points (which I realize now I mistakenly referred to as skill points in my prior post) was decreased training times. Not the accrued SP itself, but the ability to continue to accrue SP at a higher rate. This benefit DID go away as, implants aside, those who trained them now train the same skills on the same map at the same speed as someone who never trained them.

Their removal was not to prevent the gap from widening either. It was to replace near compulsory training with more gameplay applicable training. So long as they retained their affect this couldn't be achieved. The addition fixed of attribute points was intended to preserve training times, not close the gap between old and new players. Further evidence of this is the removal of the initial double training speed at the same time.

So we see again the learning skills DID suffer loss as part of the plan. The ship skills do not. Ship skills are not limited in their benefits to their roles as prerequisites. There are still ships they effect even if you should choose not to fly them. The learning skills on the other habd, had they remained and stayed effective would have caused the entire learning change to be rendered completely ineffective in it true goal. Since they had to be rendered wholly ineffective it made perfect sense to reimburse them.

Ship skills are not in this case and are still effective regardless of your choice to take advantage of that effect. Thus the 2 situations are greatly different.

If having more SP isn't an advantage, than gaining SP faster isn't one either, so its relevant, no matter how you want to cry it isn't because it hurts your position. Crying irrelevant at every point doesn't make you right.

No, they didn't train them for the SP. They trained them to train faster, and they no longer train faster. Hence their affect was removed.

As a note the exchange would not have been worthwhile for me and possibly several others who invested heavily in them before the change was announced had it not been for the reimbursement. The SP gained in that short time would not have negated the time sunk into the skills themselves (I believe it was a couple of years to get a net positive SP in gameplay affecting skills to pay yourself back the full contents of the learning folder). There would have been literally no way to profit from the training, whereas an orca pilot can simply get into a retriever and can make use of his skills. That they are unwilling does not make the 2 situations the same.

OK, see, that second point is a good one that shows the absurdity of the skills in the first place. I actually quit my first time around solely because of those skills and doing the math behind them. It was ridiculous. And yeah, no reimbursement for those who hadn't been training for over two years would have had disasterous results. I'd probably argue that alone was the reason for the reimbursement over anything else, not losing an advantage... which comes to why I disagree with your first point. When you train faster, you get more SP, which ends up being the whole reason you'd want to train faster, so you can get more skills. And those that trained over the two years? They got more skills than those who prefered not to put up with that absurdity. No matter how you swing it, that's an advantage and one that was gained through the skill.



Probably not the one I'd pick either. In fact its the reason I dislike most as unprecedented situations warrant unprecedented action.