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Intergalactic Summit

 
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[Resolved] Primed for Peace - A Petition to New Eden
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Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2013-02-10 19:29:44 UTC
Louvaki-haan, it's clear that Caldari Prime must be returned to the State, perhaps as a territory jointly managed by the CEP and a peace must be in place that is mutually beneficial to both sides before the Titan is removed.

Perhaps the total demilitarisation of the Luminaire system is the best way forward, it seems sensible that both sides must have equal strength for there to be any sort of chance for a detente to stick. Normally I'd consider the words of a man like James Sygarius most carefully before opposing them, but Roden's very political life is staked on the Federation re-conquering Home. I simply don't trust him to maintain the Status Quo, whereas the Titan has been in Luminaire for years with no adverse effects.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2013-02-10 22:33:24 UTC
That titan is a symbol, a decoy, nothing more. Be it here or not, it will not stop a true assault by a superior force nor will it act as a deterrent of any kind.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#23 - 2013-02-10 22:40:29 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
That titan is a symbol, a decoy, nothing more. Be it here or not, it will not stop a true assault by a superior force nor will it act as a deterrent of any kind.


Mrs. Farel,

I believe former Gallente President Souro Foiritan and the vast majority of the Federation's citizens would disagree with you there. If it was not at least somewhat true then there would have been no 'One Day War'. There's something unsettling about knowing that retaliation would end in the deaths of hundreds of thousands if not millions of the people you are sworn to protect.

Respectfully,

Simon Malkov Louvaki, CEO
Sengokuvaa Corporate HQ
Federal Administration Information Center
Office Complex 781, Tier V
Luminaire VII (Caldari Prime)

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2013-02-10 22:48:30 UTC
I am not sure to understand ?
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#25 - 2013-02-10 22:59:37 UTC
Perhaps I misunderstood your original post. I interpreted it as to saying the Leviathan would not act a deturent against invasion or military action by the Federation, I was replying that I don't believe that to be the case given the reaction of Souro Foiritan.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#26 - 2013-02-11 01:05:37 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
That titan is a symbol, a decoy, nothing more. Be it here or not, it will not stop a true assault by a superior force nor will it act as a deterrent of any kind.

I'm glad I've recorded that statement for posterity, because if a Gallente assault on Caldari Prime were to occur, those words should be framed alongside images of charred cities on Gallente Prime. Perhaps with the caption "famous last words?", or something to that effect.

Look, I despise Heth. I think he's a dictator, someone who is leading my race down a dark path to being the pariahs of the cluster, and would love to see him killed. However, your statement is flat out stupid. The occupation force in orbit of the planet would be negligent not to have surveillance on any of the potential avenues of approach to the planet, such as from stations, stargates, and force concentrations in the system.

Any sudden movements by the Gallente forces, and that titan can change alignment for Gallente Prime. If a taskforce shows up to challenge the State's control of Caldari Prime, all it takes is a warp from that Leviathan, and billions of Federation citizens will die. "We'll disable its warp with heavy interdictors", you might say - may I remind you that the titan is not alone. Its escort fleet will be sure to disable anything that would otherwise pin it down before engaging in a stand-up fight.

Please tell me Federal citizens and affiliated capsuleers are not so stupid as to believe what you've said. If you are, then I pity you, and your lack of strategic vision.

Glory

Faded Light is recruiting
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-02-11 01:18:55 UTC
At which point the State has:

a. Lost its only bargaining token in the Luminaire system
b. Lost the one thing important to it in the Luminaire system
c. Lost any hope of portraying themselves as the morally superior party in the argument
d. Utterly voided its membership of CONCORD
e. Given the Federation a spectacularly good justification to retaliate with overwhelming lethal force
f. Gained literally nothing

Threatening to shoot a hostage only works while the hostage is still alive. If you shoot the hostage, you not only lose the only thing that's stopping people from shooting you, you give them an extra reason to do so.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#28 - 2013-02-11 01:31:25 UTC
If the Federation launched an attack in lieu of Heth's threat then the State would have already lost everything anyway. There would be nothing stopping Heth from giving the order to rain down as much death and destruction as he could, because all he would have left was to make good on his promise. Andreus however is right, and I don't think Heth has the foresight to see the consequences listed above. In fact, this entire situation shows how little foresight he had on the matter.

I don't agree with the method in which Home was retaken, but at this juncture there can be no lasting peace unless it rest within the Caldari sphere of influence. Once Heth is gone, I hope President Roden will take the initiative if not the Megas to end this debacle once and for all.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Henry Montclaire
Guild of Independent Pilots
DammFam
#29 - 2013-02-11 06:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Henry Montclaire
I believe the term appeasement may have some bearing on this discussion.

I also put before the Caldari here a scenario and a question. Say that a group of settlers come to a planet. There are ruins of a previous civilization there, but the planet has fallen under the government of these settlers by hook or crook. The settlers make a life there, have children there, and those children build lives there. For hundreds of years they live on this planet until one day strangers appear. These strangers explain that that planet was their home, and that they've come to reclaim it. They demand that the settlers' decedents vacate their houses, they threaten them with violence, persecute them for the crimes of people they never knew. The planet that they were born and raised on becomes their prison, and the ghosts of the past become their harsh and self righteous jailers.

Is that Justice?
Wei Soikutsu
Doomheim
#30 - 2013-02-11 08:54:47 UTC
That is not justice; that is a terrible analogy. Positing third-party settlers, omitting small details like the entire history of the conflict, and pretending they live in some sort of information vacuum makes this completely inapplicable to the current situation.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2013-02-11 09:02:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Henry Montclaire wrote:
I believe the term appeasement may have some bearing on this discussion.

I also put before the Caldari here a scenario and a question. Say that a group of settlers come to a planet. There are ruins of a previous civilization there, but the planet has fallen under the government of these settlers by hook or crook. The settlers make a life there, have children there, and those children build lives there. For hundreds of years they live on this planet until one day strangers appear. These strangers explain that that planet was their home, and that they've come to reclaim it. They demand that the settlers' decedents vacate their houses, they threaten them with violence, persecute them for the crimes of people they never knew. The planet that they were born and raised on becomes their prison, and the ghosts of the past become their harsh and self righteous jailers.

Is that Justice?


That depends, did those Settlers you mention blockade, browbeat, orbitally bombard and then invade the planet to create those ruins?

You keep trying to decouple the fate of the planet from that initial violent act. It will not work, everybody remembers. The Caldari did not voluntarily elect to leave Caldari Prime for pastures new, they were bombed and then chased from the face of it. Now, I am all in favour of allowing current indigees the right to seek citizenship in the State and retain their property. I'm fine with them receiving compensation to move away - compensation that should be equally provided by the Federation and the State as part of any settlement.

What I am not fine with is the Federation stealing my Homeworld through violence and then, frankly, whining about it when we take it back through the threat of violence.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-02-11 17:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Fey Ivory
i do not take any side in this conflict, but iwe taken a few days to analyse the situation, and trying to read up on the topic and its underlaying complications... first id like to agree with first speaker i hope a peace accord can be agreed upon... now let us look at the situation, and history...

Revololutions split neigbours apart, it ewen tears relatives to choose sides, when the Caldari choose to break of from the federation, the majority of the people of the planet in question might have choosen to rebel, but in all revolutions, there would been those that dident want to rebel, that did want to stay loyal to the federation, those peoples desendents still live on that planet and have equal right to it... Its theirs birth planet as much as it is the people that rebeled and created the Caldari State...

So we got two people with equal claims, devided again by war and conflict, and of idelogy and politics ... and the situation have come to a point where neither side wish to back down based on principle and pristige, so the war will rage on taking on its own life for the sake of it...

What id suggest is that the system be declared a mutual system and shared by the Federation and the State... both sides could allow the people living there to be goverened by two poltical systems... im not saying it will be easy, but if there is a will its possible, and since the Federation and the State if this comes true will live side by side, both side could promote the system a trade hub, lower taxes to broker and build up its infrastucture for just this sake, if this would be a reality, a healthy trade hub, and trade is a great deterent against conflict in the system, since it hurt both by stopping it...

Luminaire, if im not entirly wrong means comes of the word light, in all its darkness at hand, this system could by the light of a new dawn !
Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#33 - 2013-02-11 17:29:45 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:

What id suggest is that the system be declared a mutual system and shared by the Federation and the State... both sides could allow the people living there to be goverened by two poltical systems... im not saying it will be easy, but if there is a will its possible, and since the Federation and the State if this comes true will live side by side, both side could promote the system a trade hub, lower taxes to broker and build up its infrastucture for just this sake, if this would be a reality, a healthy trade hub, and trade is a great deterent against conflict in the system, since it hurt both by stopping it...
Luminaire, if im not entirly wrong means comes of the word light, in all its darkness at hand, this system could by the light of a new dawn !
[emphasis mine]

Many have brought out ideas in this thread about peace between the State and Federation. This is very heartening. I have not the political knowledge or skill to judge the feasibility of any of these ideas, but just the presence of peaceful ideas is very refreshing. There always seems to be a will for war, but to have a will for peace, as Ms. Ivory puts it, that is a step toward greatness.
Let the most intelligent among you keep posting ideas for peace right here on this thread. Maybe, just maybe, one of them will take.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#34 - 2013-02-11 18:23:08 UTC
Yes, perhaps demilitarization of the entire system would be best. I will edit my OP to include that option.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
To remember Yakiya Tovil-Toba without remembering the context for his actions is folly. However I am pleased that the Federation does still remember Caldari resolve and the cost it can inflict in the face of unchecked aggression.

Do not misunderstand me, I have no fondness for the war between our peoples but that doesn't mean I'll accept a dishonourable peace.
Sadly, not all Gallente children will learn, let alone remember, the context. And others could not care less, all they see is a supercapital near their home(world). After all, it takes only a single day of madness, corruption, or desperation for some admiral to ram something with it.

Do I understand you correctly that you would consider the withdrawal of the titan to be a dishonourable peace, even if the withdrawal takes place after CONCORD protection comes into place? Why? (I have only a tenuous understanding of (Caldari) honour.)

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2013-02-11 18:55:14 UTC
Mister Biko, I would consider withdrawing the Titan a dishonourable peace if it was not part of an agreement that guaranteed long term access and control of Home for the people of the Caldari State.

If an agreement was made that honoured those terms, I would regard it as an honourable agreement and would support some form of military parity within Luminaire, whether that meant withdrawing the Leviathan from Home or the addition of a Gallente Titan around Gallentia.

There can be no more agreements that do not satisfy the long-term needs of both parties. We have shown that they, truthfully, solve nothing.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#36 - 2013-02-11 19:04:21 UTC
Possession is 9/10th's of the law.


If you want it back, take it back, and accept the price in blood to be paid.


Sabik now, Sabik forever
Anslo
Scope Works
#37 - 2013-02-11 19:07:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Mister Biko, I would consider withdrawing the Titan a dishonourable peace if it was not part of an agreement that guaranteed long term access and control of Home for the people of the Caldari State.

If an agreement was made that honoured those terms, I would regard it as an honourable agreement and would support some form of military parity within Luminaire, whether that meant withdrawing the Leviathan from Home or the addition of a Gallente Titan around Gallentia.

There can be no more agreements that do not satisfy the long-term needs of both parties. We have shown that they, truthfully, solve nothing.


I'm with Pieter on this one. We, as a race, need to get over ourselves. We got pushy and stupid. We've spent long enough acting like kids. Give the Caldari their planet back and do joint custody of the system, just like old times. There's no reason a solar system can't be held by two consenting governments (aside from the decision makers being assholes).

Yes, I'm talking about both Heth and Roden. It's like two spoiled brats who can't share a sandbox. Gods dammit.

Silas Vitalia wrote:
Possession is 9/10th's of the law.


If you want it back, take it back, and accept the price in blood to be paid.




And completely ignore this ***** and her outdated thinking. Get over yourself Silas.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-02-11 19:16:50 UTC
Anslo wrote:

And completely ignore this ***** and her outdated thinking. Get over yourself Silas.


Yes... quite outdated thinking indeed that let them trounce Federation defenses and retake the planet.



Good luck asking them nicely to give it back.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Anslo
Scope Works
#39 - 2013-02-11 19:22:20 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Anslo wrote:

And completely ignore this ***** and her outdated thinking. Get over yourself Silas.


Yes... quite outdated thinking indeed that let them trounce Federation defenses and retake the planet.



Good luck asking them nicely to give it back.



You don't read do you? Look back at what I said.

I don't want us taking it back. I want the kids to grow up and share the stupid hunk of rock.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#40 - 2013-02-11 19:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Silas Vitalia
Anslo wrote:
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Anslo wrote:

And completely ignore this ***** and her outdated thinking. Get over yourself Silas.


Yes... quite outdated thinking indeed that let them trounce Federation defenses and retake the planet.



Good luck asking them nicely to give it back.



You don't read do you? Look back at what I said.

I don't want us taking it back. I want the kids to grow up and share the stupid hunk of rock.



Your peacenik opinion is in the minority among your kind, which in your democratic system means it counts for even less than it would in other Empires.

I fully expect bloodshed on this issue extremely soon. Stay tuned!

Sabik now, Sabik forever