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balanced Dust 514 boarding parties
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#21 - 2013-02-06 19:07:20 UTC
In most fights (tho not all) that just won't or even can't happen. No ones going to sit around on a gate for instance if they've just caught a shiny T3 and shot it down to hull - then sit around for 5 minutes or whatever while a dust match plays out - all the time giving the opportunity for the victims friends to arrive or another bigger roaming gang to turn up. Other examples when someone points a noctis in a site - sometimes theres a chance to ransom them but often people will just shoot them before the NPC aggro becomes an issue and/or not want to be sitting around in site incase someone else enters the system and jumps them to. In big 100s of player fights you aren't going to just halt everything or move onto another target leaving a target half finished etc.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#22 - 2013-02-06 19:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Rroff wrote:
In most fights (tho not all) that just won't or even can't happen. No ones going to sit around on a gate for instance if they've just caught a shiny T3 and shot it down to hull - then sit around for 5 minutes or whatever while a dust match plays out - all the time giving the opportunity for the victims friends to arrive or another bigger roaming gang to turn up.


why would nobody do that? If you succeed you have a fully fitted T3, if his friends arrive you have another fight, if boarding fails you can still kill it. So many options you can choose intentionally or unintentionally.

If you play eve for killmails.. kill it and never board anything. It does not force any playstyle on you or something.

Rroff wrote:

In big 100s of player fights you aren't going to just halt everything or move onto another target leaving a target half finished etc.

well. this is by design. Explosions are important in eve. You can't and shouldn't be able to take all ships, but you could pick one or two at the end of the fight. On the contrary, boarding could be a nice in-space trigger to start a 100 man fight. Since you have something precious, are forced to defend it and have a good chance that help arrives.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Lupvirga Wolf
Dornish Propulsion
#23 - 2013-02-08 10:33:50 UTC
Here's how i see boarding would work,



You can only be boarded in Low sec/Null Sec or just Null Sec.


You would need a ship called a Millita Cruiser (or something simular in name), this ship is basicly a freight that can spawn Mercs for boarding. No weapons, just mercs. any Cruiser type could NOT be boarded for the simple reason it would be OPed to other ships in this class or under.


When you board you choose your spacific objective (capture or steal cargo). depending on objective depends on Price of buying mercs to board. more you offer to pay, the better the mercs you have to board. also, Stealing cargo is always cheaper and easyer than capturing the ship itself. Buying Clone Revival Units will cost in the millions and takes money to restock your clone count. Also sence you are paying for the mercs, depending on the skill lvl AND if they complete the main Objective you can end up payin up to 200k-2M PER MERC.


Only A squad or 2 squads may board a ship at a time. this can be based on how many Millita Cruiser are attempting to board you, or something EvE player based (skill, equipment, ect)
.

If the ship warped out of range of the Cruiser the match ends early or you AUTOMATICLY have 0 clone count. i think having a 0 clone count because the ship warped would be a good penilty. also, if the Cruiser is destroied the clone count will automaticly reach 0. blowing up the Boarded ship via attacking it or because it selfdestructed means no one gets paid sept the mercs.


you get FREE Boarding Defence, whether bot or Merc, and you get better mercs/bots for paying better insurance. this gives you best insentive to obtain higher Insurance. Not only that but there are defencese on the ship that the Capcleer can trigger to impede the progress of the mercs this can change the path or give addtional objectives to figure out. Also, they get a WAY Higher clone count than the Boarders or unlimited if they are using Bots.



Boarders only get 7-10 mins to acheave their objectives on battleships and capitals. battlecruisers are and expection, they get 11-15 mins to acheave their objectives.


there is high risk/high reward now for using mercs. Now being a pirate is fun and challanging.

any opinions?
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#24 - 2013-02-08 11:03:04 UTC
Lupvirga Wolf wrote:
Here's how i see boarding would work,



You can only be boarded in Low sec/Null Sec or just Null Sec.


You would need a ship called a Millita Cruiser (or something simular in name), this ship is basicly a freight that can spawn Mercs for boarding. No weapons, just mercs. any Cruiser type could NOT be boarded for the simple reason it would be OPed to other ships in this class or under.


When you board you choose your spacific objective (capture or steal cargo). depending on objective depends on Price of buying mercs to board. more you offer to pay, the better the mercs you have to board. also, Stealing cargo is always cheaper and easyer than capturing the ship itself. Buying Clone Revival Units will cost in the millions and takes money to restock your clone count. Also sence you are paying for the mercs, depending on the skill lvl AND if they complete the main Objective you can end up payin up to 200k-2M PER MERC.


Only A squad or 2 squads may board a ship at a time. this can be based on how many Millita Cruiser are attempting to board you, or something EvE player based (skill, equipment, ect)
.

If the ship warped out of range of the Cruiser the match ends early or you AUTOMATICLY have 0 clone count. i think having a 0 clone count because the ship warped would be a good penilty. also, if the Cruiser is destroied the clone count will automaticly reach 0. blowing up the Boarded ship via attacking it or because it selfdestructed means no one gets paid sept the mercs.


you get FREE Boarding Defence, whether bot or Merc, and you get better mercs/bots for paying better insurance. this gives you best insentive to obtain higher Insurance. Not only that but there are defencese on the ship that the Capcleer can trigger to impede the progress of the mercs this can change the path or give addtional objectives to figure out. Also, they get a WAY Higher clone count than the Boarders or unlimited if they are using Bots.



Boarders only get 7-10 mins to acheave their objectives on battleships and capitals. battlecruisers are and expection, they get 11-15 mins to acheave their objectives.


there is high risk/high reward now for using mercs. Now being a pirate is fun and challanging.

any opinions?


My opinion on this is taht I don't want to buy a PS3 and play a shooter that I have no interest whatsoever in playing to be the one that is responsible for my own spaceship's fate in teh PC game that is Eve online.
Lupvirga Wolf
Dornish Propulsion
#25 - 2013-02-08 11:07:41 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
Lupvirga Wolf wrote:
Here's how i see boarding would work,



You can only be boarded in Low sec/Null Sec or just Null Sec.


You would need a ship called a Millita Cruiser (or something simular in name), this ship is basicly a freight that can spawn Mercs for boarding. No weapons, just mercs. any Cruiser type could NOT be boarded for the simple reason it would be OPed to other ships in this class or under.


When you board you choose your spacific objective (capture or steal cargo). depending on objective depends on Price of buying mercs to board. more you offer to pay, the better the mercs you have to board. also, Stealing cargo is always cheaper and easyer than capturing the ship itself. Buying Clone Revival Units will cost in the millions and takes money to restock your clone count. Also sence you are paying for the mercs, depending on the skill lvl AND if they complete the main Objective you can end up payin up to 200k-2M PER MERC.


Only A squad or 2 squads may board a ship at a time. this can be based on how many Millita Cruiser are attempting to board you, or something EvE player based (skill, equipment, ect)
.

If the ship warped out of range of the Cruiser the match ends early or you AUTOMATICLY have 0 clone count. i think having a 0 clone count because the ship warped would be a good penilty. also, if the Cruiser is destroied the clone count will automaticly reach 0. blowing up the Boarded ship via attacking it or because it selfdestructed means no one gets paid sept the mercs.


you get FREE Boarding Defence, whether bot or Merc, and you get better mercs/bots for paying better insurance. this gives you best insentive to obtain higher Insurance. Not only that but there are defencese on the ship that the Capcleer can trigger to impede the progress of the mercs this can change the path or give addtional objectives to figure out. Also, they get a WAY Higher clone count than the Boarders or unlimited if they are using Bots.



Boarders only get 7-10 mins to acheave their objectives on battleships and capitals. battlecruisers are and expection, they get 11-15 mins to acheave their objectives.


there is high risk/high reward now for using mercs. Now being a pirate is fun and challanging.

any opinions?


My opinion on this is taht I don't want to buy a PS3 and play a shooter that I have no interest whatsoever in playing to be the one that is responsible for my own spaceship's fate in teh PC game that is Eve online.



to bad, Dust514 will eventuly affect faction wars to it's core. you're already gona be deeply effected. better play a different PC game now.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#26 - 2013-02-08 12:34:30 UTC
Lupvirga Wolf wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:
Lupvirga Wolf wrote:
Here's how i see boarding would work,



You can only be boarded in Low sec/Null Sec or just Null Sec.


You would need a ship called a Millita Cruiser (or something simular in name), this ship is basicly a freight that can spawn Mercs for boarding. No weapons, just mercs. any Cruiser type could NOT be boarded for the simple reason it would be OPed to other ships in this class or under.


When you board you choose your spacific objective (capture or steal cargo). depending on objective depends on Price of buying mercs to board. more you offer to pay, the better the mercs you have to board. also, Stealing cargo is always cheaper and easyer than capturing the ship itself. Buying Clone Revival Units will cost in the millions and takes money to restock your clone count. Also sence you are paying for the mercs, depending on the skill lvl AND if they complete the main Objective you can end up payin up to 200k-2M PER MERC.


Only A squad or 2 squads may board a ship at a time. this can be based on how many Millita Cruiser are attempting to board you, or something EvE player based (skill, equipment, ect)
.

If the ship warped out of range of the Cruiser the match ends early or you AUTOMATICLY have 0 clone count. i think having a 0 clone count because the ship warped would be a good penilty. also, if the Cruiser is destroied the clone count will automaticly reach 0. blowing up the Boarded ship via attacking it or because it selfdestructed means no one gets paid sept the mercs.


you get FREE Boarding Defence, whether bot or Merc, and you get better mercs/bots for paying better insurance. this gives you best insentive to obtain higher Insurance. Not only that but there are defencese on the ship that the Capcleer can trigger to impede the progress of the mercs this can change the path or give addtional objectives to figure out. Also, they get a WAY Higher clone count than the Boarders or unlimited if they are using Bots.



Boarders only get 7-10 mins to acheave their objectives on battleships and capitals. battlecruisers are and expection, they get 11-15 mins to acheave their objectives.


there is high risk/high reward now for using mercs. Now being a pirate is fun and challanging.

any opinions?


My opinion on this is taht I don't want to buy a PS3 and play a shooter that I have no interest whatsoever in playing to be the one that is responsible for my own spaceship's fate in teh PC game that is Eve online.



to bad, Dust514 will eventuly affect faction wars to it's core. you're already gona be deeply effected. better play a different PC game now.



There is more to Eve than faction warfare. If you think that Dust is going to affect Null sec in a significant manner, you should have a look at who is on the CSM.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#27 - 2013-02-10 20:15:56 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
boarding parties could be the next big thing for the CCP marketing department after orbital bombardment becomes boring.

so how could it work in a balanced fashion?

IMO those two high level conditions must be maintained to make it balanced for both sides:
1) the ship should be only boardable when it would die anyway (explosion imminent requirement)
2) there should be at least one way to prevent successful boarding


1) preconditions for boarding
Arrow ship immobilized (pointed, not in range for docking or jumps)
Arrow shields, armor and hull are below a certain threshold (ship is basically dead)
Arrow speed is below a certain threshold

2) preventing successful boarding
Arrowvia self destruct (or regular destruction of the ship)
Arrow defending the ship till one or more of the conditions listed in 1) do no longer apply (e.g. your reinforcement fleet arrived)

how would a dust match on a ship work?
The boarding party would have the job to reach the pod. Additional objectives could be to temporary disable the self destruct mechanism, disable ship drives, weapons, eject cargo.. you name it. The defending party would have the objectives to delay the boarding till the ship explodes (protect self destruct mechanism) or delay the takeover till your reinforcement fleet arrives (protect pod).

If the player does not have a dedicated merc defense team standing by, the mercs will be put together via match making (player driven ship protection contracts - could work like ship insurance).



- - - - -

FAQ:

the merc point of view: what is victory?
its simple: if the ship explodes with you or the pod is killed you did the job right. This will minimize griefing since destruction of the ship is basically a victory condition for the merc. Rewards are player driven, no NPC contracts(!). So if you think you can invite mercs short before you press F1 to kill the ship you do them a favor since you gave them free rewards. Full rewards are only payed out if all objectives (as specified in the contract) are met.

how are mercs transported?
"generic merc clone" commodity. Empty hulls till the match starts. Maybe another container with "generic space merc equipment pack" for the resources they need for the weapons and stuff. Special module or ships does the actual boarding by attaching itself on the other ship (or something similar).

its my ship i don't want that a console player takes it away from me!
read 1) again. You are already dead, its your fault.

so i have to wait 20mins till i can lose the ship? How long is a boarding match?
well. if the mercs run to your pod without resistance and kill you its not very long. If they do not manage to disable the self destruct its max 2mins after you enable it. And if you have a very good defense team it can be quite long.. since your goal is the delay boarding till your reinforcement fleet arrives, or your ship explodes.. remember?

POS/Outposts?
right now? I don't think that CCP wants to touch them before they know what they want to do with them. But yes they would be the obvious first choice for in-space barding under different conditions.

POCOs?
sure, could generate a lot of matches. Even in highsec if CCP decides to make them player driven.


But, my ships have only one person on board: me.

So, no real point.

Thank you.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#28 - 2013-02-10 20:53:42 UTC
Sol Weinstein wrote:


But, my ships have only one person on board: me.

So, no real point.

Thank you.

thats not the case and i am sorry that you see no point in this request.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#29 - 2013-02-11 06:40:20 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:


But, my ships have only one person on board: me.

So, no real point.

Thank you.

thats not the case and i am sorry that you see no point in this request.


"That's". To what is your pronoun referring to?

"So, no real point."

-or-

"my ships have only one person on board: me."

Thank you.
Aakkonen
Yoyodyne Industries
#30 - 2013-02-11 09:33:02 UTC
"capitals would probably need special rules anyway, since they are huge and very expensive. It should be more time effort to board them which could also lead to more prep time for rescue fleets..."

Okay... once, one of my friends ratting carrier was tackled by BLops gang. We builded a 30 man rescue fleet in 3 mins, and get on site in less than 5 mins. so how long it would take to capture capital? 10 mins, seriously, it would be ridicoulosy easy to prep a fleet.

Overall this is bad idea to use against ships. Against POCO's and POS's this is quite intresting idea and I would support it.. 'cos POS and POCO bashing can take time, like, when shileds and armor is gone you get option to invite a DUSTies to board it and capture. ofc it would require specialised ship and special mod. it would make this game more immersive no doubt.

Fly safe o7

Bad Jokes since -09.... Fly Safe! o7
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#31 - 2013-02-11 16:26:37 UTC
Aakkonen wrote:
"capitals would probably need special rules anyway, since they are huge and very expensive. It should be more time effort to board them which could also lead to more prep time for rescue fleets..."

Okay... once, one of my friends ratting carrier was tackled by BLops gang. We builded a 30 man rescue fleet in 3 mins, and get on site in less than 5 mins. so how long it would take to capture capital? 10 mins, seriously, it would be ridicoulosy easy to prep a fleet.

whats wrong with rescue fleets? If we talk about caps you will be almost always able to send something if you are in an larger alliance - it doesn't matter if its getting boarded or only pointed. I don't invent any hard numbers for how long the match should last since its pointless at this stage. What i did say is that caps would probably require additional rules for the boarding. Alone the dimension would make it very unrealistic that a small team can take such a ship by foot.

Build a rescue fleet and get a fight - where is the problem? Its a good thing that boarding can be defended, in fact its a requirement of this proposal. It is supposed to be balanced and should not leave the impression of being helpless even if you are already getting boarded. In best case you have a fight in space and a fight in the ship at the same time ;)


Aakkonen wrote:

Overall this is bad idea to use against ships. Against POCO's and POS's this is quite intresting idea and I would support it.. 'cos POS and POCO bashing can take time, like, when shileds and armor is gone you get option to invite a DUSTies to board it and capture. ofc it would require specialised ship and special mod. it would make this game more immersive no doubt.

Fly safe o7

sure, yes to structures. Its already in the FAQ.

thanks for the comment, fly safe to u2

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Moe Cislak
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-02-11 19:21:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Moe Cislak
Why should the ship be "almost dead" ? I mean why bother boarding the ship when you could just blow it up in one shot or two ?
I really like the idea of disabling weapons or ejecting cargo from the inside. I can imagine pirate teams hijacking haulers to seize the contents of the cargohold without damaging it. Would be epic.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#33 - 2013-02-11 21:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Moe Cislak wrote:
Why should the ship be "almost dead" ? I mean why bother boarding the ship when you could just blow it up in one shot or two ?

why the requirement. Boarding should not influence normal combat to a large extend. If you have a perfectly fine ship and actively participate in combat you shouldn't suddenly die in your pod and your opponent has your ship. The requirement of an immobilized (near dead) ship creates a situation where you effectively already made a mistake and lost your ship. You can now try go go down with the ship (your mercs defend self destruct) or defend it till help arrives (your mercs defend your pod). Its just a rule to add fairness to the system. Explosions are very important for eve economy, boarding should not lead to a situation where ships just change the owner but do no longer explode. Near dead ships add further risk to the whole mechanic.


Moe Cislak wrote:

I really like the idea of disabling weapons or ejecting cargo from the inside. I can imagine pirate teams hijacking haulers to seize the contents of the cargohold without damaging it. Would be epic.

yeah ;) if you want all the cargo you will certainly think about boarding instead of the easy F1 choice as a pirate.

thanks for the comment

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#34 - 2013-02-11 21:38:00 UTC
sorry i somehow overlooked to reply to this one

Nariya Kentaya wrote:

because matchmaking will go like this:

1) boarders will by RNG matchmaking be a bunch of scrubs who have their levels by sheer amount of games played, and get curbstomped easily
2) the reverse is true with the random chumps defending you being the ones to get stomped.

public matchmaking would be only the fallback for situations where you have no contracts set up. Its like basic ship insurance which kicks in when you lose an uninsured ship.

if you run your deep space transports through w-space you will try to have a contract with a friendly merc alliance set up, or maybe even a quick reaction dust group in your own corp which can be pulled out from public matches if something important happens. Payout for them could work like bounties (orients itself of your ship+fitting+cargo value). Contracts essentially limit the set of mercs which can fight for you. This will exclude the "random chumps" you mentioned, unless you pay the wrong mercs :)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Zancor Mezoran
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-02-19 18:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Zancor Mezoran
Bienator II wrote:
Explosions are very important for eve economy, boarding should not lead to a situation where ships just change the owner but do no longer explode. Near dead ships add further risk to the whole mechanic.


This. Inflation is already a large problem in the EVE economy, in my opinion. If a feature like this - which I think is absolutely awesome - is to be implemented, I want ship/cargo seizures to be impractical.

Also, another idea would be to have DUST 514 players linked to either their EVE accounts, or if they have none then a "potential EVE account". Through this, the money from mercenary contracts can contribute to a fund, which is reserved for whenever they make an EVE account (or if they have one already, then sent directly) - and can be converted to PLEX through an account management interface, which would then activate those "potential accounts". We all know that CCP is a fan of alternative payment methods, and this would not only create another but also provide further incentive to play both EVE and DUST 514, and link the two games on yet another level.

I believe the main issue in the way of this feature is the amount of effort placed into its development, not only in terms of mechanics and graphics but also in closing security loopholes born from these spontaneous and active-time links between EVE and DUST 514. Also potential issues are the server load and how time dilation would interfere with the defending player's ability to participate. Though I like the idea for many reasons, I think it may be a very long ways down the road, if ever.... =(
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#36 - 2013-02-19 19:45:23 UTC
Zancor Mezoran wrote:

I believe the main issue in the way of this feature is the amount of effort placed into its development, not only in terms of mechanics and graphics but also in closing security loopholes born from these spontaneous and active-time links between EVE and DUST 514. Also potential issues are the server load and how time dilation would interfere with the defending player's ability to participate. Though I like the idea for many reasons, I think it may be a very long ways down the road, if ever.... =(


i would still see this feature as fairly low risk since it would still work without eve if **** hits the fan. Indoor graphics assets and the mechanics can be reused for regular matches in dust - i mean they can basically reuse the whole map for corp matches without any link to eve. The link itself would only require minimal communication, for example match results or match cancellation (e.g ship explodes). Its a bit more as OB but not much if you think about it. Its not an "all or nothing" feature, it could be rolled out in small steps.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#37 - 2013-03-04 10:51:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Liafcipe9000
this will take quite some time until it's implemented, if CCP decides to do it at all.
assuming it will be implemented, ransoming will never be the same. it has its advantages and DISadvantages, but I like the idea of a boarding party.

BTW, what should happen to the target ship if and when the boarding party assumes control?
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#38 - 2013-03-04 16:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
this will take quite some time until it's implemented, if CCP decides to do it at all.
assuming it will be implemented, ransoming will never be the same. it has its advantages and DISadvantages, but I like the idea of a boarding party.

yeah. The entire feature as a whole is certainly a lot of work but it is not an all-or-nothing feature. Indoor maps can be used for regular dust matches without all those mechanics in place. Ship boarding could even work without the link in form of pve content (for both eve and dust) - its very iterational and could be rolled out in small steps.

Liafcipe9000 wrote:

BTW, what should happen to the target ship if and when the boarding party assumes control?


the ultimate goal of the aggressor is to take out the pod of the ship, once this is done the match ends and the mercs travel via space internet to their home. The ship will now float empty in space and can be boarded by other capsules.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Mikaila Penshar
SISTAHs of EVE
#39 - 2013-03-05 00:30:10 UTC
The ideas proposed to link Dust and EVE that I have seen so far on the forums don't really make much sense -this one included- not for lack of trying, or will to have such deeper links between the two games exist.... they simply don't work because they are two completely different games. So, no matter what anyone says, until there is an aspect of WiS available in EVE itself, there is no common ground between DUST and EVE... thus proposed gameplay ideas will favor either EVEstyle or DUSTstyle and neither will be adequately represented.

Sure it would be cool to have boarding parties, but....

ya know whut I'm sayin yo?
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#40 - 2013-03-05 01:05:25 UTC
Mikaila Penshar wrote:
The ideas proposed to link Dust and EVE that I have seen so far on the forums don't really make much sense -this one included- not for lack of trying, or will to have such deeper links between the two games exist.... they simply don't work because they are two completely different games. So, no matter what anyone says, until there is an aspect of WiS available in EVE itself, there is no common ground between DUST and EVE... thus proposed gameplay ideas will favor either EVEstyle or DUSTstyle and neither will be adequately represented.

Sure it would be cool to have boarding parties, but....

ya know whut I'm sayin yo?

no i don't. you somehow forgot to mention why it won't work.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value