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Mining Barge SP Reimbursement

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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#81 - 2013-02-10 23:27:41 UTC
Thur Barbek wrote:
Pohbis wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
I would say: get an Itty V and play around with that for a bit to make sure hauling is what you want to do before going for the high SP Orca. And I would say this before and after the changes!
You'd tell them to train almost a month for something that will have its skill requirement reduced to less than a day? Blink
Flying an iteron V with lvl 1 industrial skill will give very very bad cargo space. Other ships are better than an iteron V at skill levels 1-4. So to get the best hauler you still need... gallente industrial V
You're right, but 30 days for someone to see if "hauling is for them"?

I'm sure a Badger Mk II would be enough for someone to figure this out, and you'd be on the right track for the ultimate hauler; the Charon Big smile
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#82 - 2013-02-10 23:28:12 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Buying a mining ship for its hauling/mobile base qualities and then demanding a refund on the mining prereqs is the definition of chutzpah. You knew what you were buying when you bought it. You will still be able to fly the ship even after the prereq changes. You have lost nothing and deserve nothing, IMO.


On a side note, as much as I would like to dismiss the OP as a one-off idiot, we all need to realize that people like the OP have been around for a long time, because even the Bible addressed this issue in the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. (The one where the workers hired in the morning and those hired late at night were (unfairly!) paid the same wage for different amounts of work.) We should probably assume that there are plenty of people out there who think like the OP on this matter.


The following is where I mock the OP's proposal. Feel free to skip to the next post in the thread.

I bought a Nighthawk command ship for running missions. I never intend to fit a warfare link on it nor fly in a fleet with it. I demand a refund of the Warfare Link Specialist prereq. I also never intend to fly a HAC, so I want a refund of those skills as well.

I also trained up T2 Large Artillery, but I never plan on using small or medium artillery. I want a refund on those skills as well.

All the newbie faction mining frigates were replaced with the Venture. I want a refund on my racial frigate skills.

I've graduated and spent ten years in my field. However, the foreign language requirement for my major was recently removed/replaced. I want a tuition refund for those credit hours.


Heh, this is very amusing. Bringing up a parable from the bible with only very very very vague similarity, in fact almost no similarity, to argue your point is really stretching the limits of what I can rationally argue back against, and something I didn't expect from eve forums.
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#83 - 2013-02-10 23:30:11 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Buying a mining ship for its hauling/mobile base qualities and then demanding a refund on the mining prereqs is the definition of chutzpah. You knew what you were buying when you bought it. You will still be able to fly the ship even after the prereq changes. You have lost nothing and deserve nothing, IMO.


On a side note, as much as I would like to dismiss the OP as a one-off idiot, we all need to realize that people like the OP have been around for a long time, because even the Bible addressed this issue in the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. (The one where the workers hired in the morning and those hired late at night were (unfairly!) paid the same wage for different amounts of work.) We should probably assume that there are plenty of people out there who think like the OP on this matter.


The following is where I mock the OP's proposal. Feel free to skip to the next post in the thread.

I bought a Nighthawk command ship for running missions. I never intend to fit a warfare link on it nor fly in a fleet with it. I demand a refund of the Warfare Link Specialist prereq. I also never intend to fly a HAC, so I want a refund of those skills as well.

I also trained up T2 Large Artillery, but I never plan on using small or medium artillery. I want a refund on those skills as well.

All the newbie faction mining frigates were replaced with the Venture. I want a refund on my racial frigate skills.

I've graduated and spent ten years in my field. However, the foreign language requirement for my major was recently removed/replaced. I want a tuition refund for those credit hours.


Heh, this is very amusing. Bringing up a parable from the bible with only very very very vague similarity, in fact almost no similarity, to argue your point is really stretching the limits of what I can rationally argue back against, and something I didn't expect from eve forums.



now please counter the rest of his post

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#84 - 2013-02-10 23:30:21 UTC
Pohbis wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
I would say: get an Itty V and play around with that for a bit to make sure hauling is what you want to do before going for the high SP Orca. And I would say this before and after the changes!
You'd tell them to train almost a month for something that will have its skill requirement reduced to less than a day? Blink


hehe, thats even worse than telling him to train an orca when he hates mining.
Polly Oxford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#85 - 2013-02-10 23:32:56 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


Let me ask you though, what would you say to the new pilot who just entered your corporation and wants to get into hauling and has his eyes set on the Orca, you know he hates mining and would never have any use of mining barge V. In all honesty you would have to tell him to not train the Orca and wait for CCP to change it.

Surely this is not a good state of affairs for EVE to be in for the coming months. And this does not just apply to Orca's, this also applies to quite a few ships, so the chances of this scenario affecting quite a large majority of new players is very high.



You know what? You are absolutely right and I know just the way to fix it. As of now CCP should never reveal any future changes to the game before the patch is actually being deployed, so situations like that will never come up.

As for the rest of the topic: You obviously thought that the Orca was worth the 30d more training when you trained for it, so grow up and stop being jealous of people getting stuff easier than you.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-02-10 23:34:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Aren Madigan
samualvimes wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Buying a mining ship for its hauling/mobile base qualities and then demanding a refund on the mining prereqs is the definition of chutzpah. You knew what you were buying when you bought it. You will still be able to fly the ship even after the prereq changes. You have lost nothing and deserve nothing, IMO.


On a side note, as much as I would like to dismiss the OP as a one-off idiot, we all need to realize that people like the OP have been around for a long time, because even the Bible addressed this issue in the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. (The one where the workers hired in the morning and those hired late at night were (unfairly!) paid the same wage for different amounts of work.) We should probably assume that there are plenty of people out there who think like the OP on this matter.


The following is where I mock the OP's proposal. Feel free to skip to the next post in the thread.

I bought a Nighthawk command ship for running missions. I never intend to fit a warfare link on it nor fly in a fleet with it. I demand a refund of the Warfare Link Specialist prereq. I also never intend to fly a HAC, so I want a refund of those skills as well.

I also trained up T2 Large Artillery, but I never plan on using small or medium artillery. I want a refund on those skills as well.

All the newbie faction mining frigates were replaced with the Venture. I want a refund on my racial frigate skills.

I've graduated and spent ten years in my field. However, the foreign language requirement for my major was recently removed/replaced. I want a tuition refund for those credit hours.


Heh, this is very amusing. Bringing up a parable from the bible with only very very very vague similarity, in fact almost no similarity, to argue your point is really stretching the limits of what I can rationally argue back against, and something I didn't expect from eve forums.



now please counter the rest of his post


Its pretty much all ranting and mockery involving things only slightly related and with completely different circumstances that are unaffected by the changes. There's nothing to counter because its all trash.

Except the venture bit, which wouldn't have been too unreasonable for pure miners.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#87 - 2013-02-10 23:34:13 UTC
Pohbis wrote:
Thur Barbek wrote:
Pohbis wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
I would say: get an Itty V and play around with that for a bit to make sure hauling is what you want to do before going for the high SP Orca. And I would say this before and after the changes!
You'd tell them to train almost a month for something that will have its skill requirement reduced to less than a day? Blink
Flying an iteron V with lvl 1 industrial skill will give very very bad cargo space. Other ships are better than an iteron V at skill levels 1-4. So to get the best hauler you still need... gallente industrial V
You're right, but 30 days for someone to see if "hauling is for them"?

I'm sure a Badger Mk II would be enough for someone to figure this out, and you'd be on the right track for the ultimate hauler; the Charon Big smile


Any racial industrial would do tbh since you can always take the lier 1 ship and haul with it to see if it's your thing. Most newbie would probably benefit quite a low from trying a few different stuff instead of spcailising into somethign from the start anyway. No amount of text on website or words from a palyer can really make you know how it feel to do each profession in EvE. You don't train for a noctis to try salvaging for example.
SoOza N'GasZ
L F C
Ethereal Dawn
#88 - 2013-02-10 23:36:52 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
SoOza N'GasZ wrote:
i didnt say they werent i was implying on steves comment saying its the customers responsibility to siff through the forums for alerts to changes. forums are not a part of the product eve online. the company needs to inform consumers directly in form of direct notification be it emai newsletters or in game messages.


The forums are a product of EVE & are the primary method of general communication between the devs & the playerbase. Upcomming potential changes are always stickied & are incredibly easy to find. I have yet to play an online game where the company informs you of every upcomming change through ingame messages & email (And as a gaming goon, I play a lot of games). If a player is truely interested in upcomming game changes then they will easily find the information they seek.


that may be the norm for you personaly but its not a legal approach bro unless stated specificly in the games user agreements and even then i would beg there being legislations stating otherwise.

Legba
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#89 - 2013-02-10 23:37:14 UTC
Polly Oxford wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


Let me ask you though, what would you say to the new pilot who just entered your corporation and wants to get into hauling and has his eyes set on the Orca, you know he hates mining and would never have any use of mining barge V. In all honesty you would have to tell him to not train the Orca and wait for CCP to change it.

Surely this is not a good state of affairs for EVE to be in for the coming months. And this does not just apply to Orca's, this also applies to quite a few ships, so the chances of this scenario affecting quite a large majority of new players is very high.



You know what? You are absolutely right and I know just the way to fix it. As of now CCP should never reveal any future changes to the game before the patch is actually being deployed, so situations like that will never come up.

As for the rest of the topic: You obviously thought that the Orca was worth the 30d more training when you trained for it, so grow up and stop being jealous of people getting stuff easier than you.


Saying that those who agree with a SP reimbursement is simply due to jealousy is a rather low base argument. If you read the points put forth it is not at all about jealousy as I think the Orca change is a good change for the better. Perhaps I would add more training time for such a valuable ship myself though, but in essence its a good change. The main issue is CCP is fundamentally changing the skill system with this new initiative making many previously essential skills now worthless.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#90 - 2013-02-10 23:38:56 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Buying a mining ship for its hauling/mobile base qualities and then demanding a refund on the mining prereqs is the definition of chutzpah. You knew what you were buying when you bought it. You will still be able to fly the ship even after the prereq changes. You have lost nothing and deserve nothing, IMO.


On a side note, as much as I would like to dismiss the OP as a one-off idiot, we all need to realize that people like the OP have been around for a long time, because even the Bible addressed this issue in the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. (The one where the workers hired in the morning and those hired late at night were (unfairly!) paid the same wage for different amounts of work.) We should probably assume that there are plenty of people out there who think like the OP on this matter.


The following is where I mock the OP's proposal. Feel free to skip to the next post in the thread.

I bought a Nighthawk command ship for running missions. I never intend to fit a warfare link on it nor fly in a fleet with it. I demand a refund of the Warfare Link Specialist prereq. I also never intend to fly a HAC, so I want a refund of those skills as well.

I also trained up T2 Large Artillery, but I never plan on using small or medium artillery. I want a refund on those skills as well.

All the newbie faction mining frigates were replaced with the Venture. I want a refund on my racial frigate skills.

I've graduated and spent ten years in my field. However, the foreign language requirement for my major was recently removed/replaced. I want a tuition refund for those credit hours.


Heh, this is very amusing. Bringing up a parable from the bible with only very very very vague similarity, in fact almost no similarity, to argue your point is really stretching the limits of what I can rationally argue back against, and something I didn't expect from eve forums.



now please counter the rest of his post


Its pretty much all ranting and mockery involving things only slightly related and with completely different circumstances that are unaffected by the changes. There's nothing to counter because its all trash.

Except the venture bit, which wouldn't have been too unreasonable for pure miners.


Hehe. Exactly, which is why I didn't bite.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#91 - 2013-02-10 23:40:11 UTC
SoOza N'GasZ wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
SoOza N'GasZ wrote:
i didnt say they werent i was implying on steves comment saying its the customers responsibility to siff through the forums for alerts to changes. forums are not a part of the product eve online. the company needs to inform consumers directly in form of direct notification be it emai newsletters or in game messages.


The forums are a product of EVE & are the primary method of general communication between the devs & the playerbase. Upcomming potential changes are always stickied & are incredibly easy to find. I have yet to play an online game where the company informs you of every upcomming change through ingame messages & email (And as a gaming goon, I play a lot of games). If a player is truely interested in upcomming game changes then they will easily find the information they seek.


that may be the norm for you personaly but its not a legal approach bro unless stated specificly in the games user agreements and even then i would beg there being legislations stating otherwise.


Problem :

Quote:
Granted, CCP could put flashing lights in the middle of the login screen that say “these changes are happening and it is important to you high sec industrialist types” like they tried to do with the mining barge changes, but half the people who use the ships will still not notice the change. It will lead to hilarious complaints in the forums after the fact, like the mining ship changes spawned.


It's sad, but it's true.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#92 - 2013-02-10 23:41:43 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
over a month of their time was completely worthless to them now?



And how is worthless?

They got to fly the Orca before the change.
They get to fly it afterwards.

From their perspective, /nothing/ has changed.

What this really boils down to is:
'Waah! they get to do something more easily than I got to.'

That's all.

Do you complain when you go to MacDonalds, and find out they cut the price the day before? When you had a burger the week before and had to pay the higher price?


quoting for emphasis

You were happy with training mining barge V before the changes so it must be worth it. just don't read that dev blog or talk to anyone about the skill requirements and guess what? It affects you not one jot!

Oh and please don't hide behind the "newbies" getting into Orcas it's Malcanis law and all that jazz at work


Let me ask you though, what would you say to the new pilot who just entered your corporation and wants to get into hauling and has his eyes set on the Orca, you know he hates mining and would never have any use of mining barge V. In all honesty you would have to tell him to not train the Orca and wait for CCP to change it.

Surely this is not a good state of affairs for EVE to be in for the coming months. And this does not just apply to Orca's, this also applies to quite a few ships, so the chances of this scenario affecting quite a large majority of new players is very high.



And how many new players can afford the 710 mil for an Orca?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Mc Scam
Doomheim
#93 - 2013-02-10 23:42:55 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:


Ever hear of the slippery slope fallacy? And probably a bit of strawman.

While again, reimbersing because someone wants to be the flavor of the month is silly, reimbersing because they changed the skill requirements is a bit different. This is a pretty unique change. This is not the kind of change that someone should have to gamble with and not something I imagine anyone could have seen coming. One can see nerfs and such coming, one can decide instead to play the way they feel like rather than go for flavor of the month. One can't reasonably decide that "oh, I'm going to train this or wait on this thing I want in hopes that they change the skill requirements and train this instead because it'll let me fly it better when the change happens". Well, ok NOW they can do that for this particular change, but yeah.


As I understand it one reasonably decided to get skill x to fly ship y at some point. Ship y can still be flown after the change, if this wouldn't be the case I would agree with your statement.

There has also been a warning months ahead, so noone who cares enough to keep himself informed will get the wrong skills to fly ship y and not be finished b4 the change happens, ending up unable to fly.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2013-02-10 23:43:10 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


Saying that those who agree with a SP reimbursement is simply due to jealousy is a rather low base argument. If you read the points put forth it is not at all about jealousy as I think the Orca change is a good change for the better. Perhaps I would add more training time for such a valuable ship myself though, but in essence its a good change. The main issue is CCP is fundamentally changing the skill system with this new initiative making many previously essential skills now worthless.



Just because it has no use to you does not make the skill worthless wich is why CCP is not giving any refund. They only refund if something become truly worthless because in such case, they would also completely delete the skill anyway.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#95 - 2013-02-10 23:45:04 UTC
SoOza N'GasZ wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
SoOza N'GasZ wrote:
i didnt say they werent i was implying on steves comment saying its the customers responsibility to siff through the forums for alerts to changes. forums are not a part of the product eve online. the company needs to inform consumers directly in form of direct notification be it emai newsletters or in game messages.


The forums are a product of EVE & are the primary method of general communication between the devs & the playerbase. Upcomming potential changes are always stickied & are incredibly easy to find. I have yet to play an online game where the company informs you of every upcomming change through ingame messages & email (And as a gaming goon, I play a lot of games). If a player is truely interested in upcomming game changes then they will easily find the information they seek.


that may be the norm for you personaly but its not a legal approach bro unless stated specificly in the games user agreements and even then i would beg there being legislations stating otherwise.



Not a legal approach? Are you a lawyer who specialises in such things? I suspect not.

Here's a tip: If something is not illegal, it's legal.

And I would /love/ for you to point out a specific bit of legislation that says 'you must inform your customers of changes to a product, which may happen in the future'.

I won't bother holding my breath though.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
SoOza N'GasZ
L F C
Ethereal Dawn
#96 - 2013-02-10 23:45:43 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Polly Oxford wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


Let me ask you though, what would you say to the new pilot who just entered your corporation and wants to get into hauling and has his eyes set on the Orca, you know he hates mining and would never have any use of mining barge V. In all honesty you would have to tell him to not train the Orca and wait for CCP to change it.

Surely this is not a good state of affairs for EVE to be in for the coming months. And this does not just apply to Orca's, this also applies to quite a few ships, so the chances of this scenario affecting quite a large majority of new players is very high.



You know what? You are absolutely right and I know just the way to fix it. As of now CCP should never reveal any future changes to the game before the patch is actually being deployed, so situations like that will never come up.

As for the rest of the topic: You obviously thought that the Orca was worth the 30d more training when you trained for it, so grow up and stop being jealous of people getting stuff easier than you.


Saying that those who agree with a SP reimbursement is simply due to jealousy is a rather low base argument. If you read the points put forth it is not at all about jealousy as I think the Orca change is a good change for the better. Perhaps I would add more training time for such a valuable ship myself though, but in essence its a good change. The main issue is CCP is fundamentally changing the skill system with this new initiative making many previously essential skills now worthless.


this is my point also

Legba
Polly Oxford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-02-10 23:48:13 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Polly Oxford wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


Let me ask you though, what would you say to the new pilot who just entered your corporation and wants to get into hauling and has his eyes set on the Orca, you know he hates mining and would never have any use of mining barge V. In all honesty you would have to tell him to not train the Orca and wait for CCP to change it.

Surely this is not a good state of affairs for EVE to be in for the coming months. And this does not just apply to Orca's, this also applies to quite a few ships, so the chances of this scenario affecting quite a large majority of new players is very high.



You know what? You are absolutely right and I know just the way to fix it. As of now CCP should never reveal any future changes to the game before the patch is actually being deployed, so situations like that will never come up.

As for the rest of the topic: You obviously thought that the Orca was worth the 30d more training when you trained for it, so grow up and stop being jealous of people getting stuff easier than you.


Saying that those who agree with a SP reimbursement is simply due to jealousy is a rather low base argument. If you read the points put forth it is not at all about jealousy as I think the Orca change is a good change for the better. Perhaps I would add more training time for such a valuable ship myself though, but in essence its a good change. The main issue is CCP is fundamentally changing the skill system with this new initiative making many previously essential skills now worthless.


It doesnt make the skill worthless though. Just because you are not using it doesnt make it worthless. Also you derived quite a bit of value from it by being able to fly the Orca before the patch.
SoOza N'GasZ
L F C
Ethereal Dawn
#98 - 2013-02-10 23:51:26 UTC  |  Edited by: SoOza N'GasZ
Steve Ronuken wrote:
SoOza N'GasZ wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
SoOza N'GasZ wrote:
i didnt say they werent i was implying on steves comment saying its the customers responsibility to siff through the forums for alerts to changes. forums are not a part of the product eve online. the company needs to inform consumers directly in form of direct notification be it emai newsletters or in game messages.


The forums are a product of EVE & are the primary method of general communication between the devs & the playerbase. Upcomming potential changes are always stickied & are incredibly easy to find. I have yet to play an online game where the company informs you of every upcomming change through ingame messages & email (And as a gaming goon, I play a lot of games). If a player is truely interested in upcomming game changes then they will easily find the information they seek.


that may be the norm for you personaly but its not a legal approach bro unless stated specificly in the games user agreements and even then i would beg there being legislations stating otherwise.



Not a legal approach? Are you a lawyer who specialises in such things? I suspect not.

Here's a tip: If something is not illegal, it's legal.

And I would /love/ for you to point out a specific bit of legislation that says 'you must inform your customers of changes to a product, which may happen in the future'.

I won't bother holding my breath though.


mate i am not a lawyer you are right but trust me ive worked in the entertainment industry and have been exposed to this situation. as you are the one who wants to see a legislative approach to interactive products fundamental changes and the need to inform customers about them why dont you do the honours and google it ... or write an email to ccp asking them if this is the case.

Legba
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#99 - 2013-02-10 23:52:27 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


Saying that those who agree with a SP reimbursement is simply due to jealousy is a rather low base argument. If you read the points put forth it is not at all about jealousy as I think the Orca change is a good change for the better. Perhaps I would add more training time for such a valuable ship myself though, but in essence its a good change. The main issue is CCP is fundamentally changing the skill system with this new initiative making many previously essential skills now worthless.



Just because it has no use to you does not make the skill worthless wich is why CCP is not giving any refund. They only refund if something become truly worthless because in such case, they would also completely delete the skill anyway.


Ok, let me give another hypothetical argument to counter the logic of this opinion. What if CCP decided the entire skill system needed overhauling, all combat ships would now be reliant on industrial related skills, and all industrial skills are now required for combat activities. You could still use all the combat skills you had spent months training for, but for another completely unrelated activity in industry. But they are still useful in some way, and so according to the logic of your opinion that would be acceptable.

In regards to the Orca, players trained mining barge to fly the orca, now this once useful skill, useful due to the fact it was required to fly the orca, is now used for a purpose completely different to the original purpose for which it was trained. So although still useful, its useful for an activity unrelated to the initial purpose of training it.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#100 - 2013-02-10 23:53:16 UTC
Although I agree with the OP I think the word that applies is precedent. I do not believe there will be a refund.

I will train my last couple skills for the Orca within 5 days. I have no need for mining barge V, it is not the way I will use it. But it is what it is. My suggestions to CCP would be however:

1) Announce these changes as soon as you know you are making them.

2) Give realistic timelines for these changes instead of stuff like, "ZOMG, train BCV noa!" in December then wait for the Summer to make the change.

3) Realize that there is an opportunity cost for your decision and make the non-required skills somewhat useful. I don't want a refund, I want utility. Such as Mining Barge is no longer a prerequisite, but give a bonus for having trained it on Orcas. Nothing says a bonus for a ship has to be a prerequisite.