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Its official The Retriever is the New King of HI SEC
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Buck Badger
Aliastra
#21 - 2013-02-07 00:48:47 UTC
Iosue wrote:
this doesn't bode well for Hulkageddon. Retrievageddon just doesn't have the same ring.

Venturageddon!!!!!

"Trust no one.  As soon as God crapped out the third caveman a conspiracy was hatched against one of them."  Hunter Gathers
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#22 - 2013-02-08 00:04:40 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Looking @ http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=74231 every HI SEC ore except Kernite (why?) the Retriever reigns supreme....
In non hi sec ores the Hulk still reigns probably becuase its safer in the deep blue doughnut where its used

The HI SEC King is dead long live the new Hi SEC KingAttention


But the Retriever's yield is so much lower. ??
elise densi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2013-02-08 16:40:07 UTC
What about the mackinhaw ?
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-02-08 21:53:48 UTC
elise densi wrote:
What about the mackinhaw ?


Lower yield than a Hulk.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-02-08 22:12:39 UTC
Iosue wrote:
this doesn't bode well for Hulkageddon. Retrievageddon just doesn't have the same ring.


RETribution.

Sorted.

Twisted

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-02-09 00:00:27 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Iosue wrote:
this doesn't bode well for Hulkageddon. Retrievageddon just doesn't have the same ring.


RETribution.

Sorted.

Twisted



Why didn't you just say, "Posted in a thraed that had meaning, but I have no idea what it is."?
GreenSeed
#27 - 2013-02-09 10:50:09 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
This may be true, but it doesn't make the retriever king, just the most used work horse.


actually, being the most used does make it king. so... it does.


Pawns are the most common piece on a chess board, they are not kings.
Infantry are the most common soldiers in battle, they are not kings of the battlefield.
Ford F series are the most common car registered in the US, they are not kings of the road.

Again, just because it's common, doesn't make it king. Kings are those viewed as excelling or being dominant. Hulls easily dominate retrievers in mining amount, macs in hold amount.


i have no idea why are your arguing semantics, the op is unusually clear on his point. (he usually makes no sence on his posts)

his point is, given the cost-results ratio being completly skewed thanks to the WORST rebalance in eve history, the hulk is a over priced piece of crap.


let me put it this way, if you live in highsec and you mine in hulks claiming that math dictates they have the best isk/h, then you are a simple minded buffoon. that's NOT the whole equation, part of the equation must be amortization costs. once you take into account amortization mining in a hulk is a fools errand, noone should even undock, or even manufacture those things for highsec use.

they are kings of nothing, overly expensive noob traps. claiming that they have the best yield is like saying officer fittings make you the "king" of missions or anoms because they beat anything else... except they are so expensive and they make such coveted killmails that not even using the low level officer stuff is worthwhile, people will gank you. and yeah, there's plenty of officer stuff that's under a bill a piece, cheaper than deadspace, but people will still go to stupid efforts just to get that killmail.

the cost and risk must be part of the equation like everything in eve, that's why officer fittings are noob bait, same with hulks.

as it is now, 200m for 2m isk/h over a covetor, knowing you will be the primary target is just plain stupidity.


people have been saying this was the wrong thing to do since the "barge rebalance" was announced, in the old days miners could mine trough hulkgeddon losing ships and making a profit at the end, now its just pointless. the correct way of rebalancing barges had to be to SLASH production costs by at least 70% and leaving them as they were stat wise, the only good thing to come out of the rabalance is the skiff... i cant wait to see 20 morons gank a 120kehp skiff and botch the kill 50% of the time. spending 200% of the target ships worth to kill it. Roll

if they had reduced production costs, instead of a half assed buff to tank and utility, you would have mineral costs going down, and the belts full of targets.

instead all you get is skiffgeddon, have fun.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#28 - 2013-02-09 15:34:13 UTC
Factor in that when one compares the cost, in both skill training time and sheer ISK, between a Retriever and a Mackinaw then odds are the majority of Mackinaw users are just old pre-change solo Hulk pilots who just happened to already have the skills & ISK sitting around and simply swapped ships, rather than "new miners" looking to upgrade.

Meaning: If you already had the skills and ISK (via Hulk last year) then Mackinaw was worth the upgrade. But if you didn't already have it... it's really just not worth it.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-02-09 15:57:26 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:

his point is, given the cost-results ratio being completly skewed thanks to the WORST rebalance in eve history, the hulk is a over priced piece of crap.



Over time, small differences can turn into big profits.

But let's look at theoretical maxim yield per second. My Hulk pilot has a theoretical max yield of 46 m3/sec with implants, boost, and a T2 fit. Slightly less with a Mackinaw. If flying a Covetor her yield is considerably less. Somewhere in the high 30s. Now there isn't any direct conversion between m3 and ISK, but I think it is a better comparison tool than units per second, because that varies with ore type.

So consider 8 m3/sec for maybe 8 hours per week, for two years, and I think she has more than paid for her Hulk out of the difference between what it mines and what a Covetor can do.

I didn't like the rebalance, either. But I have the impression that CCP doesn't really care what we want.
Kate stark
#30 - 2013-02-09 17:27:17 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:

his point is, given the cost-results ratio being completly skewed thanks to the WORST rebalance in eve history, the hulk is a over priced piece of crap.



Over time, small differences can turn into big profits.

But let's look at theoretical maxim yield per second. My Hulk pilot has a theoretical max yield of 46 m3/sec with implants, boost, and a T2 fit. Slightly less with a Mackinaw. If flying a Covetor her yield is considerably less. Somewhere in the high 30s. Now there isn't any direct conversion between m3 and ISK, but I think it is a better comparison tool than units per second, because that varies with ore type.

So consider 8 m3/sec for maybe 8 hours per week, for two years, and I think she has more than paid for her Hulk out of the difference between what it mines and what a Covetor can do.

I didn't like the rebalance, either. But I have the impression that CCP doesn't really care what we want.


unless you're 100% precise in your ability to stop your lasers when the asteroid runs out of ore, you'll never reap the benefits of such a small yield difference.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
elise densi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-02-10 09:14:58 UTC
The Mac is the best solo minder atm, while the hulk does best wit fleeted ops
sutch as orca/hulk with fleet bonuses, i dont see why the ret is the king of mining...
Kate stark
#32 - 2013-02-10 11:27:11 UTC
elise densi wrote:
The Mac is the best solo minder atm, while the hulk does best wit fleeted ops
sutch as orca/hulk with fleet bonuses, i dont see why the ret is the king of mining...


because it has pretty much the same yield as the mack, and costs about 1/5 of the price, and mack kills are better for your isk efficiency on killboards so if some one *really* wants to get a kill today, it won't be your **** fit 30m isk retriever.

in short, the mackinaw just doesn't really offer anything that a retriever doesn't, considering the price difference.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Kestrix
The Whispering
#33 - 2013-02-11 12:54:50 UTC
Well I still like my hulk
Dex Thunakar
Evil Genius Organisation
#34 - 2013-02-11 14:48:53 UTC
Eh? Mackinaw still beats Retriever, right? No clue what's wrong with OP....
Dex Thunakar
Evil Genius Organisation
#35 - 2013-02-11 14:50:14 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
elise densi wrote:
The Mac is the best solo minder atm, while the hulk does best wit fleeted ops
sutch as orca/hulk with fleet bonuses, i dont see why the ret is the king of mining...


because it has pretty much the same yield as the mack, and costs about 1/5 of the price, and mack kills are better for your isk efficiency on killboards so if some one *really* wants to get a kill today, it won't be your **** fit 30m isk retriever.

in short, the mackinaw just doesn't really offer anything that a retriever doesn't, considering the price difference.


"Pretty much" the same yield? Perhaps... but still more yield also....
Kate stark
#36 - 2013-02-11 19:20:35 UTC
Dex Thunakar wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
elise densi wrote:
The Mac is the best solo minder atm, while the hulk does best wit fleeted ops
sutch as orca/hulk with fleet bonuses, i dont see why the ret is the king of mining...


because it has pretty much the same yield as the mack, and costs about 1/5 of the price, and mack kills are better for your isk efficiency on killboards so if some one *really* wants to get a kill today, it won't be your **** fit 30m isk retriever.

in short, the mackinaw just doesn't really offer anything that a retriever doesn't, considering the price difference.


"Pretty much" the same yield? Perhaps... but still more yield also....


1% yield per level. once you hit exumer 3 or 4, the amount of training for an extra 1% honestly isn't worth it unless you're OCD about min/maxing.

unless you own, and efficiently use a hulk i wouldn't reccomend you train exhumer V. again, a 1% yield increase is completely worthless unless you're 100% accurate at shortcycling asteroids.

i'm not sure there's any other skill that adds so little reward for the same time investment when looking at exhumers V

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Charles the Miner
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-02-11 21:49:41 UTC
The Retriever is King, if you are foreveralone.jpg Cry

True miners should strut their stuff in fleets. Even if they are just your own alts Bear
Kate stark
#38 - 2013-02-11 21:53:47 UTC
Charles the Miner wrote:
The Retriever is King, if you are foreveralone.jpg Cry

True miners should strut their stuff in fleets. Even if they are just your own alts Bear


and i'll still use a mackinaw because i'm busy watching jack bauer being awesome.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#39 - 2013-02-13 18:24:56 UTC
Zetaomega333 wrote:
Its not the king it just means highsec is full of either people to god damn lazy to use a covetor and make more isk or havnt trained for a covetor yet.


Hulk is still the best ore, merc, ice miner period.

So you missed the part where the different skill requirements were removed? Retriever takes the same skill requirements as the covetor now. Only difference is focus and bonuses.

A mining barge 1 you can fly all three. But the yield is nearly identical. procurer gets its single strip miner bonused 200% making it equal to 3. Retriever gets its two stripminers bonused by 50% making them equal to 3. Covetor has 3 stripminers. It is not until you get mining barge trained a few levels that the extra 4% per level the covetor gets really makes a difference.

The large Cargo hold of the retriever results in less trips to station which more than makes up for its slight reduction in yield. mining barge 5 gives the covetor a 20% yield gain over the retriever, but at mining barge 2% it is only 8%. The procurer gets a 5% per level shield bonus which with a tanked fit can make it very hard to gank.

Even with exhumers the gap in yield has been vastly reduced. With the basic bonuses making all ships basically equal to a base yield of 3 strip miners it is only the per level bonuses that set them apart. At exhumers 5 the Skiff and Mack get a 5% yield bonus(1% per level x 5 exhumers), while the Hulk gets 30% bonus (3% per level x 5 mining barge + 3% per level x 5 exhumers).

Although this does seem different then I recall from the initial change. I though the retriever had better yield then the procurer, It still dos if you fit a 3rd MLU, but was it a stealth change or did I just miss it in the patch notes? Or am I remembering wrong?
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#40 - 2013-02-13 18:32:07 UTC
In case anyone is interested in what a truly maxed Hulk can actually pull in. At least on paper.

Skills that affect yield for strip miners are;
mining - 25% at level 5 (5% per level)
Astrogeology - 25% at level 5 (5% per level)
ore specific 4 for ability to use T2 crystals - 75%
mining barge skill - varies per ship on a per level basis. 15% for Hulk (3% per level)
exhumers skill - varies per ship on a per level basis 15% on Hulk (3% per level)
MLU II - 9% bonus per module Hulk can use 2 while Mack can use 3 - 18% on Hulk

Considering a HULK runs 3 strip miners on a 3 minute cycle, yield of a single strip miner is equal to over all yield per minute.

Although this looks like a total of 173% bonus, it is actually much more, because each bonus is added one at a time one level at a time, so the bonuses are compounded. the 75% from the crystals is added last, so it is 75% of you already boosted yield, not 75% of the base. so if we start with the base yield of a strip miner II of 360m3/cycle you do not end up with 982m3 but with 1638m3. Based on max skills and Max yield Fit. Adding a 5% yield implant takes that to 1720. Add Michi implant your at 1806. Before any fleet boosts. Max ORCA boost is 10% with mining foreman implant plus cycle time bonus Which I believe works out to about a 60% boost to yield/min. Which takes you to 2890m3/min. You can then gain another up to 404m3/min with Mining drone II's with max skills and drone rigs.

A dedicated miner who actually maxes out everything, including skills, implants, fit, and fleet boosts, can actually have a max yield on paper of well over 3000m3/min with a HULK. 3294m3/min by my math, (might have made a mistake, but should be very close). Acording to Cerlestes.de even mining nothing but veldspar that will net you about 590K isk per minute or over 35 mil per hour, if you could find a grav sit of Hed/Hem(currently the top ores according to cerlestes.de) which seems common in high sec, you could make as much as 54 million isk per hour. Pretty nice income if you spend the time and resources to actually max out your yield.

So next time you look at you skills and say, WTF I got decent skills, why am I only making 18M/hour. You NEED max skills, implants, and boosts to hit these numbers. Decent skills with decent boosts will only put you in the 20-25M range.
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