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Exactly my point.

Shield fleets "don't need" Hull Upgrades, Signature Analysis, or Evasive Maneuvering either.

Those times were taken from the Dev Blog, and I can't see any T2 ships in that list. Maybe it would be an idea to read that properly before commenting on it here.




I will quote some one else's reply to illustrate the point...

Whereas part of the skills required to fly the ship have been removed, some of the skills required to fly the ship well have been added to the requirements. So it takes the same amount of time to get into the ship, but it takes less time to train the skills necessary to fly the ship well.

So training to fly an Archon now might take 140 days, but I will only have JDO 1. Training to fly an Archon after the patch will take 140 days, but I will have JDO 5, JFC 4, and JDC 3. I'm actually significantly closer to being able to fly the ship at its full potential.

What gains are there behind adding strictly non beneficial time, which shouldn't be confused with adding difficulty, to getting into a ship?

Ok, I found it. Nice idea to post that in a new topic instead of answering here or at least giving a link in OP. However I am even more disappointed now, because the amount of people who will be left behind will only rise with no SP reimbursment.

The problem is that some of the skills "needed to fly the ship" are not at all "needed to fly the ship". Jump drives on WH carriers being the most egregious example.

IMO, for the tech 1 ships:
(1) go back to IVs
(2) stop pre-req stuffing. If I want to fly my dread without siege mode, that's my problem.

I really don't get the logic of going to III if you're worried about qualification times. Dropping from V to IV already reduces training times by 5.6, reducing the base "I can sit in the hull" to about 20 days (although caps are sorta tech 1.5, having additional pre-reqs beyond the simple skill progression). Dropping to III reduces it to trivial.

Also, the argument sorta rings hollow when BS don't have extra pre-reqs, and can now be qualified for in two days or so. Under the existing IV-IV system, a new player going it alone will be able to meet pre-reqs long before they can afford the hull. Under the new system, the only people who really get to shortcut pre-reqs are alts.

Meanwhile, alts being rush-trained into caps for a very specific "traditional" role are rewarded, while everyone who wants to organically move in and try things out is told "no, if you aren't going to train to fly the ship THIS way, don't bother".

Yes, it's sorta nice to make cross-training cheaper, but the new rules make it trivial. For carriers, the is NO functional barrier to training all four once you train one. For dreads, you still need the racial guns, at least.

You've said "the new rules will make it easier to specialise" (but maybe harder to generalise). The carrier changes do the exact opposite: they reward power-blocs chasing the metagame and yet provide no assistance to newer players training carriers for niche roles.*

*Technically, training time doesn't increase, but you've moved the pre-reqs from spaceship command (which is in the same attribute sequence as all the other spaceship skills) to navigation.


Don't stuff pre-reqs for T1 ships. Figure what time you want for the hull (not the role, the hull - stop telling us how to fly our ships), and let the support skills figure themselves out.

T2 ships I have less of an issue with, as they are supposed to be "specialist", and thus it's not unreasonable to expect someone to master some skills before starting. If you are getting rid of the chained pre-reqs, make sure you put the same back in (ie assault cruisers should require the same pre-reqs as assault frigs do now, maybe plus extras).


tl;dr - new cap ship (specifically carrier) pre-reqs are a huge buff to mega-alliances while not giving much to anyone else.

Well, they removed the Battleship 5 requirement specifically for Super's. A Super alt doesn't care about battleships; the requirement is just a frustrating delay. On the other hand, carrier pilots who want to fly battleships can voluntarily train Battleships to 5. Nothing's removed from the carrier pilot's capabilities, and some training time is removed from the Super alt's training plan.

I mention that it isn't adding difficulty because you mentioned eve should be difficult. Having long prerequisites doesn't do that. Adding skills that ensure some measure of efficiency could be argued as a reduction in difficulty, as it means using the ship while not being able to draw upon it's capabilities would be a thing of the past, but that has nothing to do with a reduction in barrier of entry.

And the benefit of BS V is extremely questionable in both capitol and supercapitol specialist characters. The current proposed skill tree seems designed with that very thought in mind. Working your way to a hull now concentrates training time in improving that hull rather than requiring battleship specialization just to board other classes of ships which function very differently and draw no actual benefit from the specialization.

For those that do want the benefit of being proficient in both BS and capitol ships the option remains, but the fact that it may benefit them is not a good reason to force BS specialization.

Skill progression as I saw it was about taking the time to choose a goal and how to proceed towards it. To me it seems logical that if that goal didn't require other irrelevant prerequisites then it's not an intelligent decision to do them. Yet for some reason the argument is being made that those same irrelevant skills being mandatory somehow enriches the pilot.

To be honest I'm all for low prereqs and hard lessons for not being really ready for a ship but piloting it anyways, and in allowing real room for true specialization rather than the last level in a skill only specialization that the current tree supports and caps didn't support at all.

Fuc k me mate you are a little slow aren't you?

Currently all industrials have their advantages based on different cargo space and training time, as well as tankability to avoid sploding to a single Nado.

The Itty V was the most cargo for the most training time, Bestower was the good 'train a hauler alt' and the Badger II is the best suicide prevention tanker.

What your doing with the skill change is making the itty V the best hauler full stop. Unless you do the teiricide right then and there, it's going to be that way until you do it soon*.

As said before, the CS prerequisites are bloody stupid, I never fly links, but I love Sleipnirs. A new player to CS is going to have the same training time as before IF they never ever wanted to fly t2 cruisers (so about no one), but instead will have a bunch of useless skills to V they will probably never use. Oh the JDC III and JDF!! IV gets me, of course fuel conservation is more important when flying a capitol than range* sarcasm.

Take your head out of the sand. Nice one not putting this in F&I so we could throw back ideas, instead straight into THIS IS HAPPENING. I mean you even changed all the prereques from IV to III without any discussion at all. Fire yourself and hire someone that understands game mechanics.

You do realise there's an entirely separate line of CS called Field Command right?

They're basically T2 BC's which just happen to get a bonus to links, no one actually puts links on them. They do lots of dps, have great tank and great resists.