These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Isaac Morrie
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#541 - 2013-02-08 18:40:40 UTC
From the devblog

The trick is to remember that the Prophecy bonuses are based on the Battlecruiser skill. Thus, if you want to maximize the reimbursement, training Amarr Cruiser past 3 will do you little good. Aim for Battlecruisers 5 instead, as you will then get Amarr Battlecruiser 5.

If I am reading the devblog right if I currently have Battlecruisers 5 I only have to train Amarr Cruiser 3 in order to be given Amarr Battlecruiser 5 If so this doesn't make any sense because with Amarr Cruiser 3 I still wouldn't be able to fly the Amarr Command Ships, but I could afterwords.

Can I get a dev comment on this I need to plan my training for the next few months?
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#542 - 2013-02-08 18:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
You also missed how they're adding 4 prereqs for the command ships skill, which you get to skip.

I actually didn't, but no worries. The question came up because I was drafting an email to corpmates about what skills to train before the expansion. Command Ships will be one of them.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#543 - 2013-02-08 19:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Destoya
Isaac Morrie wrote:
From the devblog

The trick is to remember that the Prophecy bonuses are based on the Battlecruiser skill. Thus, if you want to maximize the reimbursement, training Amarr Cruiser past 3 will do you little good. Aim for Battlecruisers 5 instead, as you will then get Amarr Battlecruiser 5.

If I am reading the devblog right if I currently have Battlecruisers 5 I only have to train Amarr Cruiser 3 in order to be given Amarr Battlecruiser 5 If so this doesn't make any sense because with Amarr Cruiser 3 I still wouldn't be able to fly the Amarr Command Ships, but I could afterwords.

Can I get a dev comment on this I need to plan my training for the next few months?


Here is the skill plan to maximize your SP from the changes

Amarr Frig III
Caldari Frig III
Gallente Frig III
Minmatar Frig III

Destroyers V

Amarr Cruiser III
Caldari Cruiser III
Gallente Cruiser III
Minmatar Cruiser III

Battlecruisers V

If you have racial industrial V you probably want to train racial freighter 1 to avoid training advanced spaceship command V after the changes, and if you are similarly close to Command Ships I you will want to inject that too if you don't have our basic gang bonus skills to V.

After the patch, this will give you:

All frigates III
All destroyers V
All cruisers III
All Battlecruisers to V

After you train command ships I, you will be able to fly every command ship from all 4 races, regardless of your cruiser skill.
Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#544 - 2013-02-08 19:43:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Unkind Omen
Radius Prime wrote:
Unkind Omen wrote:
The only nasty and really confusing thing in this skill split idea is the fact that racial battlecruiser and destroyer skills would get same ranks as their common counterparts have now. Do you think that command ships alone are that good so people would surely spend 1.5 mil SP for each one of them? I think that they are not that awesome. Most people train commands as a good bonus for having at least two of racial cruisers 5. And even now it would cost only an additional 1.2mil SP to cross-train commands through cruiser skills even if you would ignore the fact that the cruiser 5 skill is a must have skill for any experienced pvp pilot anyway as it provides access to SC, Logistics, Recons, HICs and HACs as weapons of destruction.

I think that you should consider lowering a rank of racial battlecruisers skill at least to rank 5( which cruisers have) or may be even lowering both cruisers and BC skills to rank 4. Personally I already have BC and destroyers V but I still cant forget that damn month I spent training BC V. How do you imagine new players to spend 4 months to get the same result?


Nobody ever said you were obligated to train all races. It is a personal choice. Instead of having to train all cruisers to V to fly command ships you will now train all bcs instead. Not having to train racial cruiser V and battlecruisers V for CS makes perfect sense to me. For me there is the added benefit that I preferred BCS over cruisers anyway :).


1) Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?

2) There is also too much of profit from training racial cruisers V in comparsion to the profit from racial BC would be. I tell you that most EVE players wont spend 1 month of training to get acess to 2 ships, that would be just a bit better than T3 as bonus ships, would most likely have same firepower and combat potential as T3 ships while having same cost efficiency.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#545 - 2013-02-08 19:53:27 UTC
Unkind Omen wrote:


Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?


Doesn't look fair, because it isn't. In my experience Eve has always catered towards the existing playerbase, the older the better.

In every patch there is an opportunity for completely unjustified profit which can only be grabbed by those in a position to do so. (Luckily this time I will probably be one of them ;))
Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#546 - 2013-02-08 19:56:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Unkind Omen
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Unkind Omen wrote:


Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?


Doesn't look fair, because it isn't. In my experience Eve has always catered towards the existing playerbase, the older the better.

In every patch there is an opportunity for completely unjustified profit which can only be grabbed by those in a position to do so. (Luckily this time I will probably be one of them ;))


It would be just a great opportunity if only it would not affect the accessability of a large class of ships, which is also going to be nerfed down by cutting OGB. This change is going to brake command ships even more.

Upd: And yes, you do have to train multiple command ships to be able to fly in both armor and shield fleets.
DJWiggles
Eve Radio Corporation
#547 - 2013-02-08 19:57:50 UTC
Isaac Morrie wrote:
From the devblog

The trick is to remember that the Prophecy bonuses are based on the Battlecruiser skill. Thus, if you want to maximize the reimbursement, training Amarr Cruiser past 3 will do you little good. Aim for Battlecruisers 5 instead, as you will then get Amarr Battlecruiser 5.

If I am reading the devblog right if I currently have Battlecruisers 5 I only have to train Amarr Cruiser 3 in order to be given Amarr Battlecruiser 5 If so this doesn't make any sense because with Amarr Cruiser 3 I still wouldn't be able to fly the Amarr Command Ships, but I could afterwords.

Can I get a dev comment on this I need to plan my training for the next few months?


as everyone has been saying, if you can fly it NOW, you WILL be able to fly it after the change

Live on Eve Radio Sundays 15:00 GMT with me & friends talking about Eve and stuff. Twitter, Facebook TotalEve
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#548 - 2013-02-08 20:43:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sven Viko VIkolander
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.


Speaking as a newish player (when do I get to stop saying that?) clone costs and penalties need reworking asap. They make vet players risk averse (we need them to lose ships, not more reasons to horde them) and they are a serious harm to new players. Why? Because it is almost inevitable that a new player will forget to upgrade the clone, get podded, and lose some of the few SP they already have. I know I did at least once. I'm sure you can find a better ISK sink...(technically, any reason to PVP more is de facto an isk sink anyhow)

In general, though, I really like the changes. I've been a fan of the ship rebalancing since it was first proposed and I think it is generally going in the right direction, though T1 cruisers seem a bit overpowered esp. with respect to their tracking. I feel like the gap between T1 frigs and bigger stuff shrank after the frig buff, but now since then frigs have become even easier to kill than before all the balancing. Everything BS and below seems to track frigs perfectly now. The gaps between any given ship versus ships in the next class up need to be shrunk, not vice versa.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#549 - 2013-02-08 21:01:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Andendare
I have to add in my sentiment here in that requiring jump optimization skills for Carriers does not make any sense whatsoever, especially when viewed for those players who live in wormholes. I know my Carrier will never be able to jump from wormhole to wormhole, so it makes so little sense to require this.

Fighters and Tactical Logistics Configuration make WAY more sense. Hell, make it Fighters V or something if you want a time sink. Then, you can add the jump optimization skills as tertiary requirements on Supers, since we all know they can't even get into wormholes (so that fixes that), and they're about force projection in nullsec (so jump-related skills fit nicely here, too).

edit: clarity

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

DancesWithVeldspar
#550 - 2013-02-08 21:06:34 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alrigh folks, good news.

We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.

Ex:

You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.


Hope that's clear - trying my very best Sad



Thanks. It is much appreciated. After training the unneeded Mining Barges 5, I wasn't looking forward to training the unneeded Ore Industrial 3.
Callic Veratar
#551 - 2013-02-08 21:29:12 UTC
Unkind Omen wrote:
[Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?


The "fair" that they get is that it'll be that much easier for them to hop into a logistics or command ship or recon if they want. They'll have to train different skills to get to where we are, and they'll never catch up, but that's completely independent from what skills are trained. It's the side effect of not starting to play in 2003-2012.

And who cares what the prerequisites are for the T2 ships? Why do I care that Cloaking IV is required for Recons? I trained Recons a year ago (and you can too if you don't want to bother with Cloaking IV).
Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#552 - 2013-02-08 21:35:48 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:

The "fair" that they get is that it'll be that much easier for them to hop into a logistics or command ship or recon if they want.


This statement is eventually a false one as the training que is modified for command ships in the way that even training for one of them will take same time as it is now.
Candente
Navy Veteran Club
#553 - 2013-02-08 21:38:12 UTC
Thanks for the very detailed information. Time to get myself an orca... assuming its price doesn't jump up a lot by the time this happens.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#554 - 2013-02-08 21:41:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
what i found odd about the blog is that all the command ships require training the skills for the 4 main links...
when they are only going to be bonused for 2 links so surely they should only require the 2 links skills they will need

e.g. vulture will be bonused towards

  • siege warfare link
    • information warfare links

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    Dersen Lowery
    The Scope
    #555 - 2013-02-08 21:42:55 UTC
    Destoya wrote:
    Here is the skill plan to maximize your SP from the changes

    Amarr Frig III
    Caldari Frig III
    Gallente Frig III
    Minmatar Frig III

    Destroyers V

    Amarr Cruiser III
    Caldari Cruiser III
    Gallente Cruiser III
    Minmatar Cruiser III

    Battlecruisers V


    The frig skills have to be trained to IV in order to train the Cruiser skills. Otherwise, yes.

    Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

    I voted in CSM X!
    CCP Fozzie
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #556 - 2013-02-08 22:10:53 UTC
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    what i found odd about the blog is that all the command ships require training the skills for the 4 main links...
    when they are only going to be bonused for 2 links so surely they should only require the 2 links skills they will need

    e.g. vulture will be bonused towards

  • siege warfare link
    • information warfare links


    The Command ship skill requires the training of the skills for exactly 0 links. Note that there is a big difference between "Armored Warfare" and "Armored Warfare Specialist".

    The skills that are being added to the command ship skill prereqs all give bonuses to your fleet even if you don't fit any warfare links, and are therefore all very valuable for any character that wants to sit in a squad command position, command ship or not.

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
    Nevyn Auscent
    Broke Sauce
    #557 - 2013-02-08 22:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
    Unkind Omen wrote:


    1) Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?

    2) There is also too much of profit from training racial cruisers V in comparsion to the profit from racial BC would be. I tell you that most EVE players wont spend 1 month of training to get acess to 2 ships, that would be just a bit better than T3 as bonus ships, would most likely have same firepower and combat potential as T3 ships while having same cost efficiency.



    With regards to 1. No you don't. You get your 3 Racial BC skills, but you get 0 free SP.
    Your current BC skill just gets converted into the 3 racials.
    Because you have at least one of the racials, you get no refund. The refund only occurs if you have ZERO racials.

    And for the other guy who just posted, once again, CS will not need any link skills to fly. it needs the passive boost skills, which anyone in a boosting position should have anyway.
    Wing Command is not a good alternative as most boosters have no intent to ever command fleets, and the command slot is not actually required to be the booster.

    Edit: Ninja'ed by CCP Fozzie, well done Fozzie.
    Unkind Omen
    State Protectorate
    Caldari State
    #558 - 2013-02-08 22:31:26 UTC
    Nevyn Auscent wrote:
    Unkind Omen wrote:

    1) Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?



    With regards to 1. No you don't. You get your 3 Racial BC skills, but you get 0 free SP.
    Your current BC skill just gets converted into the 3 racials.
    Because you have at least one of the racials, you get no refund. The refund only occurs if you have ZERO racials.


    I would like to see any confirmation from CCP about this point. I doubt because I cant imagine a char that has no racial frigate skills at level 3 but destroyer skill trained. Same goes for battlecuisers skill. Which makes literally no one eligable for skill points refund if your POV is correct.
    Jonas Sukarala
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #559 - 2013-02-08 22:34:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Jonas Sukarala wrote:
    what i found odd about the blog is that all the command ships require training the skills for the 4 main links...
    when they are only going to be bonused for 2 links so surely they should only require the 2 links skills they will need

    e.g. vulture will be bonused towards

  • siege warfare link
    • information warfare links


    The Command ship skill requires the training of the skills for exactly 0 links. Note that there is a big difference between "Armored Warfare" and "Armored Warfare Specialist".

    The skills that are being added to the command ship skill prereqs all give bonuses to your fleet even if you don't fit any warfare links, and are therefore all very valuable for any character that wants to sit in a squad command position, command ship or not.


    Well a shield fleet doesn't need the armoured warfare skill or necessarily the bonus from the skirmish and information warfare.

    Perhaps since it is a specialist command ship it should need the specialist skills for the links it would be bonused for it would make more sense and be more race specific and more relative toward the race's ship.

    'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

    Tyberius Franklin
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #560 - 2013-02-08 22:39:53 UTC
    Unkind Omen wrote:
    Nevyn Auscent wrote:
    Unkind Omen wrote:

    1) Your problem is that I have invested 1.5 mil SP a year ago, and after this change I will just get them back as I dont have gallente cruisers trained. Meanwhile I will still get 3 racial BC's V(4.5mil SP total) literally for free. At which point does that looks fair to those who will come into the game after skill change?



    With regards to 1. No you don't. You get your 3 Racial BC skills, but you get 0 free SP.
    Your current BC skill just gets converted into the 3 racials.
    Because you have at least one of the racials, you get no refund. The refund only occurs if you have ZERO racials.


    I would like to see any confirmation from CCP about this point. I doubt because I cant imagine a char that has no racial frigate skills at level 3 but destroyer skill trained. Same goes for battlecuisers skill. Which makes literally no one eligable for skill points refund if your POV is correct.

    This has already been confirmed in the blog as well as other clarifying posts.