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Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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james1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#461 - 2013-02-08 13:10:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
James1122 wrote:
James1122 wrote:
Hi,

The changes, after reading through the whole blog and the first 2/3 pages of dev posts, seem really good and well thought through.

My only question is, as I'm about to receive a bump of 6mil sp which will push me up a clone grade, is any thing going to be done about clone costs and the restriction/disincentive they impose onto active pvp ?

Please can i have a proper reply about this as i feel this is a real issue that penalizes older players.


Please can I get a Dev comment on this?
(even if its just a its something we are looking into / keeping and eye on/ we have no plans for this at the current time)


Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.



Thank you for your reply! Anything we can do to get this pushed up the priority board because a mechanic that penalizes vets and disincentives pvp just feels wrong on every level!!


Pinky Denmark wrote:
James1122 wrote:
Please can I get a Dev comment on this?
(even if its just a its something we are looking into / keeping and eye on/ we have no plans for this at the current time)


It was written (by a dev) that you would have to check and upgrade your clone accordingly at your own cost. Try search for it...


And congrats for not actualy reading my post properly. I really would gladlygive a dev £50+ to allow us to neg rep people on this forum >.<

....
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#462 - 2013-02-08 13:11:57 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alrigh folks, good news.

We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.

Ex:

You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.


Hope that's clear - trying my very best Sad


Our hero!
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#463 - 2013-02-08 13:22:24 UTC
CCP

You are contradicting yourself and screwing things up here.

Quote:
We are changing skill requirements to keep a training time close to what we have in game right now and to make sure players meet more relevant prerequisites when gearing for Capital Ships


Wrong....

Maller > reduced from 2 days to 18 hours
Navy Augoror > reduced from 3 days to 21 hours
Oracle > reduced from 4 days 3 hours to 1 day 16 hours
Abaddon > reduced from 8 days 19 hours to 2 days 19 hours
Armageddon Navy Issue > reduced from 7 days 9 hours to 3 days
Orca > 49 days to 17 days

These are clearly not "close to what we have in game right now"


You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships.

This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class.

The support skill requirements you have added are pointless, as any Cap pilot would be training them anyway. Having them as a pre-requisite is completely meaningless.



If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that.
Jungleland Roy
#464 - 2013-02-08 13:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jungleland Roy
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alrigh folks, good news.

We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.

Ex:

You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.


Hope that's clear - trying my very best Sad


Thank you

Good decision. The rest I'm 100% behind you with.

Cheers Roy

_if you could fly it before, you can fly it now. _ Read the Blog.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#465 - 2013-02-08 13:25:58 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alrigh folks, good news.

We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.

Ex:

You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.


Hope that's clear - trying my very best Sad


Thank you for the quick reply.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#466 - 2013-02-08 13:38:34 UTC
I made sure to inject Command Ships into the alt I intend to train it on later ;)

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.

That's cool to hear.
stoicfaux
#467 - 2013-02-08 13:54:27 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alrigh folks, good news.

We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.

Ex:

You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.


Hope that's clear - trying my very best Sad

Edge case question: what if the skill is at zero, i.e. the skill is injected and either untrained or only partially trained towards level 1?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#468 - 2013-02-08 13:55:24 UTC
Alcius wrote:
For me it looks like the promise “if you could fly it before, you can fly it now” is broken here in big parts.

I´m totally unhappy with the approach of the changes in regard of older players. These changes might be an easier way for newer players to get into specific hulls, but the reimbursements and some of these changes hurt older players very hard. I know that usually there are always some victims within such deep changes, but parts are really p'$5145 me off (and I´m rather a calm person). On paper these changes might look good from a beginners point, but not if you are capable, trained and used to fly different ships already. These players will loose to much of their playstyles and flexibilitiy.


Destroyers and Battlecruisers:
Currently I have trained both of these skills to level 5 and all additional requirements meet to fly every Tier1 Destroyer/Battlecruiser of every faction with maximum bonuses.
So if I got this right, I will get a reimbursement and can reinvest in the approriate racial skill - BUT ONLY FOR ONE AT LEVEL 5 AGAIN. That means that I loose 3/4 of my bonuses of these ships, since I get only enough skill points to maximize one race to level 5. Apart that I will also have to buy the skillbooks, right?
I don´t care here, that I might be able to fly them with level 1, but the time it will take me to be at the same skill level again.


Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Battleships requirements:
Since Cruisers now require the respective racial Destroyer skill at level 3, what happens to these, if I only get enough skill points reimbursed to maximize racial Destroyer/Battlecruiser skill?
E.g. currently having Destroyers/Battlecruisers at 5; and I like to fly the Cormorant, Arbitrator, Hurricane and Dominix.
After the changes I cannot fly these, until I have the proper Racial prerequired skills trained, but I do not get enough reimbursement points to be at the same level and forced to decide which of these vessels I have to sacrifice for a while.


Impacts on fittings:
Well, since you will loose different ship bonuses, you won´t be able to use the current fittings or at least they will loose their power. Yay - NOT!


Industrials/Orca:
These changes are exaggerated! I mean Iteron V from 24d down to 33 minutes!?! WoOt, everyone will only use them instead of the other industrials, because of the cargo capacity/training time in comparison. I also feel betrayed here.


Swapping skills:
With these changes you also break promisses, since if the player doesn´t have the other skill trained to the required level, he won´t be able to fly this.
Especially Command Ships and Freighter changes are very rough! That´s over ~ one month of training!!!
Direkt impact on Electronic Attack Ships, Command Ships, as well as Interdictors, Heavy Assault Ships, Recon Ships, Heavy Interdictors as well - isn´t that too much at a time?!


Reimbursement statement:
This is just simply not enough. You should reimburse the players in a way, that they suffer as little as possible. I mean it´s not our mistake that you rebalance this, so why should we be the ones taking the hit?
We should be able to remain at our current achieved skill ranks and ships. If it would only mean to have to train up some skills in less than a week, that´s ok, but in many cases it will rather take several weeks.
There should be either given out additional free skill points, remaps or special one-time implants/boosters which speed up the training.
Also originally your quote "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" should have been expanded with "at the same level".
I comes to my mind that you might not have taken into account, that players actually have training plans, which you are messing up in big parts.


There is simply not enough wine and cheese for these changes...


Damn you are dumb. Try reading the actual topic before complaining.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#469 - 2013-02-08 13:55:57 UTC
Rommiee wrote:


You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships.

This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class.


For capital ships quite a few days of navigation skills were added, which should compensate somewhat, especially since it's on another mapping entirely.

Also it makes no sense at all to compare the times used to ENTER a ship. There's a ton of skills required to actually fly a ship and those don't change at all.

So what if the lvl 1 skill for Armageddon Navy Issue was reduced from 7 days to 3 days?
Only a moron or a desperate person would fly that thing without at least 100-150 days in support and gunnery skills and to fly the ship efficiently you would also need the BS skill at least at IV, better yet V, which takes longer than BS1 in the first place.

So you're looking at a change from something like 144-184 days to 140-180. Big deal.

Where the new system really shines is if you already have all the support skills and need to change to another race's shis due to guild doctrin, as it severly cuts down on training time.
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#470 - 2013-02-08 14:04:44 UTC
Alexandra Alt wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Alexandra Alt wrote:
So, from what I understand in that blog, and a few comments in the early pages of this thread, let's assume the following scenario:

I currently can fly every sub cap ship, all specs at lvl 4, so, I have Command Ships 4.
On the next patch, Command Ships requirements introduce the 'specific' Warfare skill requirement, which I don't have to 5, but since everyone has been saying if I have already my Command Ship skill injected and trained to 4, I'll be able to fly it, ok, no problem here.

Then someday I want to get my Command Ship skill from 4 to 5, while not having my * Warfare skills to 5, will it allow me to?


Read the blog properly, you will still be able to fly the ships and train the skill without the necessary prereq skills.


It is clear yes I can still fly the ship, as I stated in the first paragraph, I knew that already.

The issues are actually 2:

a) Will it check the pre-reqs when I add the skill in queue to train it from 4 to 5 and not allow me to ?
b) Will another skill that requires (as an example) Command Ship 5 require me to get * warfare skills to 5 ?

If the answer to any of the questions above is yes, then it makes no sense at all, remove the pre-req checks id you have the skill injected at least.



Man , you just don't quit do you? Read the ******* topic.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#471 - 2013-02-08 14:05:06 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Rommiee wrote:


You are dumbing the game down once again. There should be a requirement to invest time to be able to fly the next level of ships.

This investment of time should be significantly greater before Capital ships become available. Reducing the Battleship requirement to 3 is plain crazy, it should stay at 5. I realise that you are trying to make the progression between T1 ships uniform, but Capital ships should be excluded from this, they are a special case. It SHOULD be hard to get into this ship class.


For capital ships quite a few days of navigation skills were added, which should compensate somewhat, especially since it's on another mapping entirely.

Also it makes no sense at all to compare the times used to ENTER a ship. There's a ton of skills required to actually fly a ship and those don't change at all.

So what if the lvl 1 skill for Armageddon Navy Issue was reduced from 7 days to 3 days?
Only a moron or a desperate person would fly that thing without at least 100-150 days in support and gunnery skills and to fly the ship efficiently you would also need the BS skill at least at IV, better yet V, which takes longer than BS1 in the first place.

So you're looking at a change from something like 144-184 days to 140-180. Big deal.

Where the new system really shines is if you already have all the support skills and need to change to another race's shis due to guild doctrin, as it severly cuts down on training time.

Well actually I can see part of where they're coming from.
Whereas part of the skills required to fly the ship have been removed, some of the skills required to fly the ship well have been added to the requirements. So it takes the same amount of time to get into the ship, but it takes less time to train the skills necessary to fly the ship well.

So training to fly an Archon now might take 140 days, but I will only have JDO 1. Training to fly an Archon after the patch will take 140 days, but I will have JDO 5, JFC 4, and JDC 3. I'm actually significantly closer to being able to fly the ship at its full potential.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#472 - 2013-02-08 14:07:05 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
[/list]


When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#473 - 2013-02-08 14:08:13 UTC
Radius Prime wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
[/list]


When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog.

Radius Prime wrote:
Man , you just don't quit do you? Read the ******* topic.

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#474 - 2013-02-08 14:10:18 UTC
Radius Prime wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
[/list]


When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog.


Try the last page...

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#475 - 2013-02-08 14:12:31 UTC
Rommiee wrote:


Maller > reduced from 2 days to 18 hours
Navy Augoror > reduced from 3 days to 21 hours
Oracle > reduced from 4 days 3 hours to 1 day 16 hours
Abaddon > reduced from 8 days 19 hours to 2 days 19 hours
Armageddon Navy Issue > reduced from 7 days 9 hours to 3 days
Orca > 49 days to 17 days


Thats funny, none of the times that anybody else comes up with are anything close to yours. In fact many t2 ships actually take a bit longer to train into after this change, and by a bit, some are significantly longer.

I

Rommiee wrote:
The support skill requirements you have added are pointless, as any Cap pilot would be training them anyway. Having them as a pre-requisite is completely meaningless.


If they need to be trained anyway why do you care if they add them in as prereqs?

Rommiee wrote:
If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that.


Why wouldn't that be good for the game? More young pilots in caps means more isk leaving the game as they explode, theres too much money in the game now, it has almost not point. Anything that sucks it out thats not related to stupid clone costs is a good thing.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#476 - 2013-02-08 14:12:58 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.


You could, you know, just across the board cut them all in half and I'd love you long time.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#477 - 2013-02-08 14:13:19 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
In before you get flamed for dumbing the game down :D


Rommiee wrote:
You are dumbing the game down once again.
[...]
If you dumb the game down any more you will have a bunch of 3 month old characters flying around in Carriers. Like we need that.



Boom, i'm a freaking prophet!

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Drosal Inkunen
Spreadsheeters
#478 - 2013-02-08 14:13:31 UTC
Radius Prime wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
[/list]


When will we have answer on that one? It is most important issue in your whole blog.


It has already been answered. You will still be able to train it.

#447
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alrigh folks, good news.

We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.

Ex:

You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.


Hope that's clear - trying my very best Sad
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#479 - 2013-02-08 14:19:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Chi'Nane T'Kal
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

So training to fly an Archon now might take 140 days, but I will only have JDO 1. Training to fly an Archon after the patch will take 140 days, but I will have JDO 5, JFC 4, and JDC 3. I'm actually significantly closer to being able to fly the ship at its full potential.


Unless you're that WH carrier pilot, who cannot simply jump into his skill V Abaddon for a roam into that neighbour WH now, because he skilled useless jump drive skills instead of BS V :).

There's ups and downs for everything.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#480 - 2013-02-08 14:24:38 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

So training to fly an Archon now might take 140 days, but I will only have JDO 1. Training to fly an Archon after the patch will take 140 days, but I will have JDO 5, JFC 4, and JDC 3. I'm actually significantly closer to being able to fly the ship at its full potential.


Unless you're that WH carrier pilot, who cannot simply jump into his skill V Abaddon for a roam into that neighbour WH now, because he skilled useless jump drive skills instead of BS V :).

There's ups and downs for everything.

As wormhole carrier pilots so kindly pointed out to me, those jump skills aren't useless at all unless you built your Archon in some wormhole that you can't get out of.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)