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Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#401 - 2013-02-08 08:01:01 UTC
Role playing is not really a consideration, nor clone costs, since they should be minimal anyway, but that's a separate issue.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#402 - 2013-02-08 08:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
nvm already answered

.
Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#403 - 2013-02-08 08:08:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Unkind Omen
The only nasty and really confusing thing in this skill split idea is the fact that racial battlecruiser and destroyer skills would get same ranks as their common counterparts have now. Do you think that command ships alone are that good so people would surely spend 1.5 mil SP for each one of them? I think that they are not that awesome. Most people train commands as a good bonus for having at least two of racial cruisers 5. And even now it would cost only an additional 1.2mil SP to cross-train commands through cruiser skills even if you would ignore the fact that the cruiser 5 skill is a must have skill for any experienced pvp pilot anyway as it provides access to SC, Logistics, Recons, HICs and HACs as weapons of destruction.

I think that you should consider lowering a rank of racial battlecruisers skill at least to rank 5( which cruisers have) or may be even lowering both cruisers and BC skills to rank 4. Personally I already have BC and destroyers V but I still cant forget that damn month I spent training BC V. How do you imagine new players to spend 4 months to get the same result?
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#404 - 2013-02-08 08:17:26 UTC
On a serious note - supercapital skills are not streamlined.
Supercarrier is a hull ABOVE carrier, so it should be a separate skill, with racial carrier as prereq.
Same for titans and dreads.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#405 - 2013-02-08 08:19:23 UTC
Uhhh... what about carriers requiring logistics 5??? Or wait.. I think Im thinking of the triage module or its skill requiring logi 5 to use. Doesnt make sense to me! Will you fix that too?
Mostly mixed feelings about these changes but overall Im supportive of the initiative and optimistic.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#406 - 2013-02-08 08:19:36 UTC
Jungleland Roy wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Just to clarify one valid question.


  • Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
  • However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.

    • Ex:

  • You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.

    • We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.


Unlike a lot of people in here I have read both the Devblog and this threadnought and I say that you had better get the above quoted discussion correct.

Take command ships as an example. I have done the old (exisitng) grind to fly the ships and have command ships to 4. You are now changing the grind (skill pre-requestites) and giving people some "months" to make a choice - which is fine.

They can either do the old grind now (as I have done) and fly the ships OR wait until the skill tree changes, do the new grind and then fly the ship. In other words choose a grind either now or later and complete it to fly the ship - and you are changing the grind to keep the training time somewhat the same - which I am also fine with.

But - and it's a big but - everyone should only have to do ONE grind to fly and SKILL UP a ship. If you make it so that I (having completed the previous requirements) need to complete the new requirements to further skill up command ships then that is a huge kick in the nuts for me.

I don't want SP refund, I dont want a free re-map, I just want to be able to continue to skill up any skill that I have previously satisfied the requirements for.

TLDR - One grind is good, two grinds for the same ship is BAD!


Get this wrong and you'll **** of a lot of people and I predict that your subs will suffer.

Roy


What I particularly enjoy in reading the idiotic edicts in the dev blog is how someone who will be flying a Damnation needs Siege Warfare to V as a pre-requisite.
It is very important that someone flying an armour boosting ship has to have a shield boosting skill to V, especially when that skill's primary attribute is charisma, which everyone maxes their character in.

I have flown Claymores with CS V for a long time, and of course with Skirmish warfare skills maxed. Stupid me, I should have known that I would need ALL of the boosting skills to V to soon fly this ship. I realized 2 months ago I would need Siege and Info Warfare when the Claymore gets the overhaul, but never expected I would need armour.

Brilliant design CCP.
Cut flying Iteron V down to 33 minutes, obsoleting all other industrials, and wreck command ship pilots.

You want to negate any advantages your long term customers have?
Why not simply remove ALL pre-requisites?
If someone wants to fly a Titan, and they have the money, let them be in a Titan with a day's training.
It is clear you are moving this way.
We now have vanilla T1 ships in some cases more powerful than their Navy cousins.
And the differential between T1 ships and their T2 cousins is so small that the T2 version cannot be cost-justified.
So why would you wrecking massive time commitment by long term players to huge skill plans be that surprising.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#407 - 2013-02-08 08:35:16 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Why not simply remove ALL pre-requisites?
If someone wants to fly a Titan, and they have the money, let them be in a Titan with a day's training.

Yes, please!
I want to be there, when he warps to the gate!
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#408 - 2013-02-08 08:54:29 UTC
Deornoth Drake wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Deornoth Drake wrote:

I fail to have any idea about that overhaul but given the fact that the skill requirement drops to level 1 for each ship should yield a reimbursement for those who trained a skill to lvl 5 just to be able to get into the Iteron V or any freighter.


What a bunch of crap about the Iteron and reimbursement.

I'm pretty sure that after the tiericide there will be a max cargo variant (with minor differences) for every race. And the cargo size of that max cargo variant will most likely be even MORE skill bassed than it is today.

So in order to have the equivalent of your current Iteron V after the tiericide, you will most likely STILL need that skill at V.

or just hop into an orca


Yeah, but he didn't train the Iteron V as a prerequisite for Orca, so that's not a valid argument.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#409 - 2013-02-08 08:58:26 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Why not simply remove ALL pre-requisites?
If someone wants to fly a Titan, and they have the money, let them be in a Titan with a day's training.

Yes, please!
I want to be there, when he warps to the gate!


CCP wants more ships getting blown up, and this sure seems to be the method they are choosing.
It used to be that people learned the game mechanics in less expensive ships, because that was all they could fly, skill wise.
It gave them time to recognize that ship support skills were in many cases far far more important than the ship skill itself.

That will soon no longer be the case.
People with lots of ISK, but no ingame experience, will be flying ships classes they should not be in.

So new players can buy a plex, and in a matter of 3-4 days, be climbing into a BS hull.
Brilliant, just brilliant.

I can't wait until all ship support skills are reduced to Tier 1, and T2 weapon systems get the same treatment as the ship hulls.
FluffyDice
Kronos Research
#410 - 2013-02-08 09:01:42 UTC
I hate the sound of the changes. I'm bitter about training choices not meaning as much. Everyone else seems to like them so whatever.

While we are making the game easy mode, I guess you may as well just go ahead and make clones free already. Additionally I think you should add an option to hide low and null sec gates from the overview. Maybe tie that into the safety system.
wafflethief
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#411 - 2013-02-08 09:06:54 UTC
regarding capital skills, with capital ships 4 being a prerequisite for the racial skill, surely also having it as a prereq at level 1 for the hull is redundant and unnecessary?
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#412 - 2013-02-08 09:13:37 UTC
Garia666 wrote:
Ok so currently i dont have the destroyer skill trained at all. due to not having to found the need to fly one.


Does this change mean that i can basicly not fly anyother ship in game any more after these changes..

As almoste all ships now need destroyer skills...



It may mean you cannot train additional levels on a lot of ships, unless they go ahead with that change as well.

I'd recommend investing the few hours it takes to skill destroyers to 3.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#413 - 2013-02-08 09:16:39 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Just to clarify one valid question.


  • Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
  • However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.

    • Ex:

  • You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.

    • We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.


Is there any reason not to allow continued training as long as you have the skill injected already? Anyone who has the skill now has done the prequisite time sinks and paid the price to get the skill. It seems grossly unfair for you to suddenly take away their ability to train that skill anymore for no real reason and make them redo another timesink to regain their previous ability to advance the skill. If you're not going to allow them to continue training, you've better come up with a rock solid reasoning for it or you'll have a lot of people rightfully angry at you.

No matter what you decide I hope you give an answer very soon. Allowing continued training without prequisites will defuse the situation and stop people wasting time training skills they're not actually interested in. Confirming the opposite will cause problems, but the sooner you confirm it the more people can mitigate the effects by training the new prequisites before the changes. Either way some haste in making the final decision on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#414 - 2013-02-08 09:17:48 UTC
Caius Sivaris wrote:
Way to fuck race specialist, giving them less sp than other people.

Way to give people skills they don't want, I will get Gallente BC 5 out of that change since I got BC5 and Gallente cruiser 5, but don't have the slightest interest in flying one (no hybrid skills). Just got Gallente cruiser 5 for Cynabal and Oneiros, yet I will get extra useless SP that will count against my clone cost.

Giving people SP and leaving them affect them would be so much better...


I you have ONLY gallente cruisers at 3+, you will only get the Gallente BC to V - at the exact same cost as your old generic BC V, which you deemed necessary to train at some point. So nothing will change for you.

If you cross skilled into other races' BC prerequisites, tough luck, but noone told you to do that if you only wanted to fly Cynabal and Oneiros.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#415 - 2013-02-08 09:24:08 UTC
wafflethief wrote:
regarding capital skills, with capital ships 4 being a prerequisite for the racial skill, surely also having it as a prereq at level 1 for the hull is redundant and unnecessary?


This is a requirement of the backend system we use to distribute attribute bonuses to ships and modules.

Cleaning up the way that the skills are displayed in show info is definitely something that needs to be done at some point.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Juwi Kotch
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#416 - 2013-02-08 09:25:36 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
On a serious note - supercapital skills are not streamlined.
Supercarrier is a hull ABOVE carrier, so it should be a separate skill, with racial carrier as prereq.
Same for titans and dreads.

True

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#417 - 2013-02-08 09:44:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinzor Aumer
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So new players can buy a plex, and in a matter of 3-4 days, be climbing into a BS hull.
Brilliant, just brilliant.

FluffyDice wrote:
I hate the sound of the changes. I'm bitter about training choices not meaning as much. Everyone else seems to like them so whatever.

I dont like these changes as well. But this is not a discussion thread, it's Q&A thread. Unlike Fozzie, who post in F&I forum to actually see the feedback. Here, the decision in made - just deal with it.
Removing learning skills seems justified for me. The "III->III" scheme seems not. So what? Who cares? I just troll it a little, and get over it.
I had my fun trying to figure out which carrier I'm going to train for. New players will not have it, they'll just train them all.
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#418 - 2013-02-08 10:14:26 UTC
Regarding the industrial boosting ship changes, will we be able to change that mining barge 5 skill to the new ore industral 3? Dedicated boosters have trained that stupid mining barge 5 just to be able to fly the orca/rorq. Therefore it's useless for the dedicated boosters. So we will get back that skill's SP and from that train the ore industral 3, right?
Prester Tom
Death By Design
#419 - 2013-02-08 10:16:53 UTC
Not so many people seem bothered by this, so perhaps I'm way off track here... but does anyone else feel a bit concerned with the push towards the simplification of Eve? It seems a little like it's being taken for granted that simpler=better, surely I'm not the only player who likes it for its labyrinthine qualities?
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#420 - 2013-02-08 10:19:22 UTC
This is all great but...I trained BS V on three races to fly the capitals. If that isn't a requirements any more I'd like those skill points back as I would never have trained them to that degree. That's 100+ days of training another player doing the same thing after these change won't have to do.