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Do The Candidates make it sound like WH are broken?

Author
Mister Tuggles
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#21 - 2013-02-08 00:30:28 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Mister Tuggles wrote:
WH space isn't broken. Most of the complaints, as you said, are from the C5/6 group. They are mostly angry that they can't bring an entire fleet of caps through a hole to invade which gives the defenders a huge advantage with fights. They also complain about Dread Blapping, but that is a horse that is dead and has been beaten until it is just a blood spot on the grass. Fleet comp > Dread Blapping.

Sadly someone from a c5/6 will win the CSM race and push their large alliance agenda just like the nullbears do with their CSM members. It is the small groups who really get raped like a little white guy in a prison shower when large alliances push their agendas. Sadly CCP likes the big guys. They stroke their shaft AND cup the balls.

The only changes WH's really need aren't to WH's at all, it is to the POS system.


Please give some examples of your wild claims.

When has a member of a large alliance got on the CSM and pushed their own agenda?

While Two step (from a big alliance) has been on the CSM we have had corp bookmarks and improvements to the pos password system. I'm not saying he is solely responsible for those but either way, those changes were good for us all.

So please little kid, tell us all what the **** you are talking about.



Without wanting, or needing to go through posts by Two Step or CSM minutes I am pulling this from memory. You can go search it out for your own peace of mind if you would like. Two Step has, on numerous occasions, tried to convince CCP that mass restrictions should be increased for ease of removing people from lower class holes. He has also pushed for having large towers not be allowed in anything under a C4 for ease of removing occupants. Aka allowing larger alliances that are bored to go around wtf rolling everyone in lower class holes for their goods.
Nemo deBlanc
Resource Acquisition Unlimited
#22 - 2013-02-08 02:03:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemo deBlanc
Mister Tuggles wrote:

Without wanting, or needing to go through posts by Two Step or CSM minutes I am pulling this from memory. You can go search it out for your own peace of mind if you would like. Two Step has, on numerous occasions, tried to convince CCP that mass restrictions should be increased for ease of removing people from lower class holes. He has also pushed for having large towers not be allowed in anything under a C4 for ease of removing occupants. Aka allowing larger alliances that are bored to go around wtf rolling everyone in lower class holes for their goods.


This. While I agree with him on some things (the importance of a POS revamp for example), I've become farily convinced that Two Step is the most dangerous thing to happen to WH space possibly since Apocrypha. At least before we had a WH candidate like him, CCP just flat out ignored wormholes and kept things at they were out of sheer laziness/disinterest. None of Two Steps ideas on lower class wh space make sense to anybody that actually lives in those holes, and it's very clear he's only interested in furthering his own corps agenda. Two Step pretty much wants wormhole stabilizers in all but name (he's scared of Null Sec alliances curb stomping his corp, but has no qualms with anyone in sub C5 wh's being curb stomped by him)

I could keep repeating the same point, but I think it's already been said countless times across countless threads, so I'll just stop here.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2013-02-08 05:16:18 UTC
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
Mister Tuggles wrote:

Without wanting, or needing to go through posts by Two Step or CSM minutes I am pulling this from memory. You can go search it out for your own peace of mind if you would like. Two Step has, on numerous occasions, tried to convince CCP that mass restrictions should be increased for ease of removing people from lower class holes. He has also pushed for having large towers not be allowed in anything under a C4 for ease of removing occupants. Aka allowing larger alliances that are bored to go around wtf rolling everyone in lower class holes for their goods.


This. While I agree with him on some things (the importance of a POS revamp for example), I've become farily convinced that Two Step is the most dangerous thing to happen to WH space possibly since Apocrypha. At least before we had a WH candidate like him, CCP just flat out ignored wormholes and kept things at they were out of sheer laziness/disinterest. None of Two Steps ideas on lower class wh space make sense to anybody that actually lives in those holes, and it's very clear he's only interested in furthering his own corps agenda. Two Step pretty much wants wormhole stabilizers in all but name (he's scared of Null Sec alliances curb stomping his corp, but has no qualms with anyone in sub C5 wh's being curb stomped by him)

I could keep repeating the same point, but I think it's already been said countless times across countless threads, so I'll just stop here.

That was for a short while tossed around as an idea between WH corps, and i do believe its beend ropped, because no one (c6 or lower) felt that it was necessary or fair.

but to be honest, if you had anything we considered of value, it wouldnt matter what size tower you were in, you'd lose it in the same 2-3 day timeframe, only thing that slows us down is stront timers.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-02-08 06:38:53 UTC
Yeah I was pretty angry with two step about the whole make it easier to evict people thing but I think this was something CCP brought up first.

However, when the community got wind oh this people took to the forums in protes and I think we made it pretty clear that this proposal was unacceptable.

I don't expect our W-space candidate to be perfect but I do expect them to be hard working on our behalf and passionate about w-space, which I think two step is.
Nathan Jameson
Grumpy Bastards
#25 - 2013-02-08 07:20:18 UTC
On one hand, having spearheaded numerous tower bashes and evictions, I can affirm that they are ALL headaches and that my alliance has pretty much given up on them all. That being said, C1-C4 are significantly more of a headache, since you can only bring sub-caps, and a well-fitted tower is near impossible to remove without 30-40 people on pure DPS. In comparison, C5-C6 are easier simply because dreadnoughts can basically ignore ECM and hardeners. So I understand the push from that standpoint.

On the other hand, a well-established C5/C6 corp is also near impossible to remove, as the system can support a much higher number of competent PVP pilots to control connections and keep you out in the first place. But a change for only C1-C4 would only disadvantage the smaller corps living in those wormholes. Why not have the C5-C6 corps also scale down to Medium towers?

I enjoy conflict enablers, but I think the entire wormhole community agreed this was not the best way. Something more subtle, like preventing self-destructing in POS shields, wouldn't make evictions easier but would give attackers a definite reason to start doing them again. And might even give them reasons to hit higher-level systems first (easier with dreads, more loot likely).

http://www.wormholes.info

Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-02-08 11:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Qvar Dar'Zanar
chris elliot wrote:

As a c5 dweller I can tell you that bashing your pos is in no way ever seen as a solution for boredom.


Uh oh I probably didn't explain myself. I mean that nobody living in lower classes is going to support a change (nerfing caps) pushed by C5/C6 corps just because they (C5/C6) are bored, while the power of those same caps is the only thing protecting the small corps from being evicted out of their lowclass systems. Probably by those same C5/C6 guys that are asking for cap nerf, for added irony.

No relation between bashing and end of boredom intended.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-02-08 11:15:01 UTC
I seriously doubt that there are many low end wormhole dwellers that can use caps effectively enough to drive away a large c5/c6 alliance that were determined to evict them. Hell, many groups in c1-c3 wormholes with have 2 dreads and 2 carriers at the most.

The best defense has and will continue to be hole control.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-02-08 11:20:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Qvar Dar'Zanar
Can my Procurer save me from being killed if somebody actually wants to kill me? Probably not, but (in oposition to me being in a Retriever) it deters random SB's from blasting me into a new clone.

Edit: I know, eviting is boring and people won't randomly do it without enough force... The presence of caps may increase the threashold of power necessary, making it too much of a boredom by their sheer presence.
Nathan Jameson
Grumpy Bastards
#29 - 2013-02-08 11:26:28 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I seriously doubt that there are many low end wormhole dwellers that can use caps effectively enough to drive away a large c5/c6 alliance that were determined to evict them. Hell, many groups in c1-c3 wormholes with have 2 dreads and 2 carriers at the most.

The best defense has and will continue to be hole control.


Well, close. That's the second best defense.

The first best defense is to dissuade attack in the first place. Make the potential profit / potential reward ratio as low as possible.

For my old C3 static high, I had a tower with 52 online resists, 2 disrupts, 2 webs, 2 scrams, and 2 neuts. In a C3, where nothing above a BS can attack, that alone will give most invaders enough of a headache to keep on searching. On top of that, however, I had 21 shield hardeners I could turn on if a fleet chewed through the online defenses, giving my tower 82/84% resists across the board an a total EHP of 2.67 mil. If the invading force was committed enough to get through THAT, I had enough med and small guns offline to turn it into a deathstar, either before or after the RF timer.

To top it off, I had only a single SMA and Component Assembly Array visible inside the FF, and I anchored/onlined things only long enough to use them, after which I packed them away again. There was literally no reason to attack the tower (other than a deep personal vendetta) and a plethora of reasons not to.

This, I believe, is the biggest reason to keep large towers in C1-C4 systems. For small corps that simply do not have the manpower of many C5/C6 groups, a large tower can still be prickly enough to keep the corporation viable.

http://www.wormholes.info

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-02-08 12:03:12 UTC
A viable tactic but a well defended POS does not stop a group from setting up their own tower in your system... but we digress.
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#31 - 2013-02-08 12:28:39 UTC
I'm of the opinion that WHs are mostly ok, even the fights that take place there, including C5-C6s.

If you really want to oust someone there are means and ways beyond just instant gratification from single fights. The problem I feel is that there are people, including notable groups, who seem to think defenders should not have a homefield advantage and that just throwing a group of T3s at them should be able to overcome whatever they happen to have there. Perhaps that's over simplifying the attitude, but the sentiment is there.

It is possible with rolling holes, and time & effort, to get numerous capitals into someones home system. Just because it takes longer than one single day or one "instant gratification required please" encounter to do does not mean the system is broken.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#32 - 2013-02-08 16:28:46 UTC
SojournerRover wrote:
I have heard the word Stagnation bantered around a bit. Stagnation however is a word for the old and fat, so take it upon yourselves to make it more exciting and stop putting all the onerous on CCP. They have given you the ability to create a spark, it is up to you to turn it into fire.



BRAVO!

You hot the nail on the head here with most of EVE. One group in particular is the NullBears whining about more ISK and how everything is boring. Not wanting to take any responsibility for how they have set things up and their own actions (inactions) leading to "boredom." If it does not involve a blog POS bashing... they are lost. No creativity.

CCP Gave us a sandbox, and most here want CCP to build them sand castles as well.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#33 - 2013-02-08 16:41:16 UTC
Wormholes are broken!

We haven't had a grav site in ages.

.

Ossirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2013-02-08 20:59:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ossirrus
Jack Miton wrote:
The role of a WH CSM candidate is not to fix WHs, because they are not broken.
The role of the WH CSM is to make sure CCP don't horribly break WHs with whatever changes they put in for kspace.


Jack really has the right idea here.


The fact that every CSM post i see has a large laundry list of horrible ideas about how WH space should change and the list of posts afterwards along the lines of "totally voting for this guy" explains clearly that most people dont have a clue how CSM works. I dont care who you are your not going to walk into a summit with your grand ideas and have CCP make you lead designer on the next expansion.

The role of a CSM specifically in regards to a WH candidate is to remind CCP that WHs exist. Our candidate is there to protect our interests and make sure that when changes are made the ramifications for WH space are taken into consideration. The other approach is to try to win small victories with a "hey while your over here fixing this.. take a look at X". Two Step did this on occasion and got us some things here and there.

If a CSM candidate promises that he is going to change wormholes in some drastic way, he is lying. He may have all the intentions of doing everything he says but it just isnt going to happen. Moreover I assure you that you really dont want CCP crawling all over WH space changing things. If you think I'm wrong just take a good look at the Hurricane. Every time CCP even looks at that ship the take a dump on it.

The best thing Two Step (maybe) did was push the POS revamp up on the timeline. Victory for wormholers right? Yes. However the lesson here was that Two Step made it a broad issue and demonstrated how they effect every aspect of eve. Highsec , lowsec. null , and WH space was represented in his thread.

TLDR; Vote for the CSM that will protect our interests not the one with big ideas that will never see the light of day

Edit: posting a quote
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#35 - 2013-02-11 13:13:04 UTC
Mister Tuggles wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Mister Tuggles wrote:
WH space isn't broken. Most of the complaints, as you said, are from the C5/6 group. They are mostly angry that they can't bring an entire fleet of caps through a hole to invade which gives the defenders a huge advantage with fights. They also complain about Dread Blapping, but that is a horse that is dead and has been beaten until it is just a blood spot on the grass. Fleet comp > Dread Blapping.

Sadly someone from a c5/6 will win the CSM race and push their large alliance agenda just like the nullbears do with their CSM members. It is the small groups who really get raped like a little white guy in a prison shower when large alliances push their agendas. Sadly CCP likes the big guys. They stroke their shaft AND cup the balls.

The only changes WH's really need aren't to WH's at all, it is to the POS system.


Please give some examples of your wild claims.

When has a member of a large alliance got on the CSM and pushed their own agenda?

While Two step (from a big alliance) has been on the CSM we have had corp bookmarks and improvements to the pos password system. I'm not saying he is solely responsible for those but either way, those changes were good for us all.

So please little kid, tell us all what the **** you are talking about.



Without wanting, or needing to go through posts by Two Step or CSM minutes I am pulling this from memory. You can go search it out for your own peace of mind if you would like. Two Step has, on numerous occasions, tried to convince CCP that mass restrictions should be increased for ease of removing people from lower class holes. He has also pushed for having large towers not be allowed in anything under a C4 for ease of removing occupants. Aka allowing larger alliances that are bored to go around wtf rolling everyone in lower class holes for their goods.


Yeah personally two step lost me with those little horrible suggestions. IIRC he's also on the side of whining about "dread blapping", another thing I disagree with. IMO dread blapping isn't an issue with dreads, it's an issue with fleet size limitations as a result of wh mass. They bring a bunch of support ships like lokis to make it viable to use dreads against you, you don't/can't bring enough to deal with the support. Thats unfortunate, but a knee jerk reaction that pins the blame solely on (and tries to nerf) dreads is the wrong way to go about it imo
Missy Bunnz
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#36 - 2013-02-11 17:28:41 UTC
Phaderift wrote:
Mister Tuggles wrote:
...snipped for brevity...


... its due to a freeze in fleet meta that is caused by the way some ships function and how they interact with the WH mass restriction...


The answer is in Fleet comps, not mechanic changes. WH'ers (myself amongst them) have gotten so lazy that no one with the skills, experience and expertise of the nullsec playerbase has bothered looking at existing mechanics that can be used to CHANGE the fleet meta, or dismantle the existing, dominant fleet meta.

Adapt or die, only none of us are adapting and instead relying on how many guardian, oneiros, proteus, loki we can field. This is blob warfare at its worst and why some (myself included) are feeling the :meh: factor of another fight, against another armor T3 fleet. Even when its only 15 pilots, its still just blob.

We need people thinking and experimenting and finding new ways, tactics and fleet comps to fight with. There are plenty around, nullsec alliances adapt and adjust all the time. In the time we (wh'ers) have perfected our armor t3 fleets, they've gone through 4-5 FOTM fleet comps, with various adjustments, refinements and changes to adapt. We.... haven't. That isn't CCP's fault, it isn't something that CCP need to fix, its something WE need to fix.

Be part of the solution, start thinking, be creative. Yes, you'll wipe fleets a lot while testing and trying, but eventually you may just come up with the fleet comp that replaces armor t3 as the defacto standard. Until someone else comes up with the comp that beats yours.

Advocate and campaign on "keeping CCP focused on iteration", and you'll probably win a lot of votes, as by and large, the WH community is made up of a majority of almost-but-not-quite bitter vets.
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