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Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#341 - 2013-02-07 23:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Irregessa
This is probably spitting into the wind, but hey. My apologies to the mods beforehand. If the all caps is deemed offensive, please delete the post.


(1) IF YOU CAN FLY THAT SHIP BY THE TIME THE EXPANSION COMES OUT, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO FLY THAT SHIP AFTERWARDS TOO.

(2) NO, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET THE NEW PREREQUISITE SKILLS FOR FREE.

(3) NO, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET A REIMBURSEMENT OF SKILL POINTS FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU TRAINED THAT YOU NOW CONSIDER WORTHLESS.

(4) THE WAY THE SYSTEM IS PRESENTLY DESIGNED, IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE PREREQUISITE SKILLS YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO FURTHER TRAIN THE SKILL THAT REQUIRES THEM, BUT CCP IS LOOKING INTO POSSIBLY CHANGING THAT.

(5) IF THE SYSTEM REMAINS LIKE IT IS NOW, YOUR CLONE COST WILL INDEED GO UP (unless you have enough sp and are situation in the range such that the addition sp won't take you over into the next category).

(6) IF YOU CAN FLY THAT SHIP BY THE TIME THE EXPANSION COMES OUT, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO FLY THAT SHIP AFTERWARDS TOO. (repeated for emphasis).
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#342 - 2013-02-07 23:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: TheSmokingHertog
MisterAl tt1 wrote:
Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case?


What I also wonder, since Gallente industrial has no other benifits, why would one train it up to V if you have no freigther interests? Having several chars with Gallente industrial on LVL V, it annoys me a lot.

- Solved, forgot about ship specific bonusses -

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#343 - 2013-02-07 23:34:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Irregessa
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
MisterAl tt1 wrote:
Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case?


What I also wonder, since Gallente industrial has no other benifits, why would one train it up to V if you have no freigther interests? Having several chars with Gallente industrial on LVL V, it annoys me a lot.


All t1 industrials get a 5% bonus to cargohold size and max velocity per level of the racial industrial skill.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#344 - 2013-02-07 23:40:07 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Nightlund Audeles wrote:
Oh and another thing, I would like to have the time spent training to mining barge V back please since you are removing it and making it way to easy to fly an Orca.


Nope, sorry P Mining Barge V is useful to get Exhumers however. Don't you like the soft, hypnotizing hum of Strip Miners? Dssssshh dssssshhh dsssssssh dssssssshhhh dsssssssshhhh.


I would love the soft hypnotising hum of strip miners if they made soft hypnotising noises instead of harsh ear-scratching noises :)

Can we have the soft whoosh whoosh of ice harvesters back, please? Especially nice if the flowing blue field could be restored instead of the business pinstripe of the current mining/strip mining lasers.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mirel Dystoph
Perkone
Caldari State
#345 - 2013-02-07 23:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirel Dystoph
Straight
Mirel Dystoph wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

The only thing I'm worried about is having the ability, should I so choose, to later train HAC 5 without having to train EGU 5.

And this is an important as fock question.

Do we have to train up the prerequisites of a ship twice just because some at CCP thinks it's cool to screw with the skills around.

Reposting + definite statement would be good.

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#346 - 2013-02-07 23:51:46 UTC
Mirel Dystoph wrote:
Mirel Dystoph wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

There are quite a few (probably most) alliances that require, at the very minimum, JDC 4. If you're planning on using it a lot it pretty much already is a requirement.

And this is an important as fock question.

Do we have to train up the prerequisites of a ship twice just because some at CCP thinks it's cool to screw with the skills around.

Reposting + definite statement would be good.


You don't need to train anything twice. (unless you get podded a lot)

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#347 - 2013-02-07 23:56:58 UTC
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
MisterAl tt1 wrote:
Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case?


What I also wonder, since Gallente industrial has no other benifits, why would one train it up to V if you have no freigther interests?


Viator and Occator. Ship bonuses on the Itties
Mirel Dystoph
Perkone
Caldari State
#348 - 2013-02-07 23:57:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirel Dystoph
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mirel Dystoph wrote:
Mirel Dystoph wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

The only thing I'm worried about is having the ability, should I so choose, to later train HAC 5 without having to train EGU 5.

And this is an important as fock question.

Do we have to train up the prerequisites of a ship twice just because some at CCP thinks it's cool to screw with the skills around.

Reposting + definite statement would be good.


You don't need to train anything twice. (unless you get podded a lot)

And if I want to train HAC 5 after the change?


Edit: I just saw, that I quoted the wrong sentence...

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#349 - 2013-02-08 00:11:56 UTC
Irregessa wrote:
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
MisterAl tt1 wrote:
Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case?


What I also wonder, since Gallente industrial has no other benifits, why would one train it up to V if you have no freigther interests? Having several chars with Gallente industrial on LVL V, it annoys me a lot.


All t1 industrials get a 5% bonus to cargohold size and max velocity per level of the racial industrial skill.


Thx, I forgot about those, thats good news.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#350 - 2013-02-08 00:12:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Mirel Dystoph wrote:
Mirel Dystoph wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

There are quite a few (probably most) alliances that require, at the very minimum, JDC 4. If you're planning on using it a lot it pretty much already is a requirement.

And this is an important as fock question.

Do we have to train up the prerequisites of a ship twice just because some at CCP thinks it's cool to screw with the skills around.

Reposting + definite statement would be good.


You don't need to train anything twice. (unless you get podded a lot)
Now, Fozzie...this is not true if I fly a T3. Just for the ship exploding I have to train something twice.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Lyta Jhonson
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#351 - 2013-02-08 00:13:16 UTC
Devblog wrote:
Assault Ships, Heavy Assault Ships and Heavy Interdictors classes are going to be renamed to Assault Frigates, Heavy Assault Cruisers and Heavy Interdiction Cruisers.

Not sure if anyone cares, but why "Heavy Assault Cruisers"? I thought word "Heavy" was used to make difference between old Assault Ships and Heavy Assault Ships group names so if those are to be renamed why don't just call them Assault Cruisers (and Interdiction Cruisers)? In the end Heavy Assault Cruisers are less heavy compared to T1 cruisers than Asssault Frigates compared to T1 frigates. Yes, this will obsolete HAC and HIC abbreviations but experience shows that community shifts to new terms very quickly.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#352 - 2013-02-08 00:27:32 UTC
Thanks for putting such a huge effort into that blog Ytterbium, it's immense and comprehensive Big smile

Training ship skills to 3 instead of 4 makes a lot more sense, bravo.

The new chart looks a little empty above mining barges. Perhaps there should be a BS sized mining vessel with heavy drones and a fat ore hold at some point Cool

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#353 - 2013-02-08 00:48:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
*Chokes*..

All command links to 5 to use Command Ships? Even if they're completely irrelevant to the ship being flown?

You do not need the command links to V but the basic Warfare Skills to V.

The skills relevant to the command links are the specialist skills, not the basic ones.

For example,

you need Armored Wafare V, not Armored Wafare Specialist V.
you need Information Warfare V, not Information Warfare Specialist V.
you need Siege Warfare V, not Siege Warfare Specialist V.
you need Skirmish Warfare V, not Skirmish Warfare Specialist V.
you need Warfare Link Specilst IV.

Of course note that Command Ships are being changed to support multiple links, hence the skills. Read back to the balancing future particularly the section at the bottom: Command and Conquer. I assume that's why it isn't level one of the specialist skills.
Merouk Baas
#354 - 2013-02-08 00:58:13 UTC
I am confused by your blog, actually. Sorry.

It's because you posted screenshots of the ship prerequisites, but my brain works along the lines of "train this skill for this ship," but you haven't posted any of the skill screenshots.

I'm sitting in game, trying to compare the Amarr Carrier skill prerequisites with the actual Amarr carrier, the Archon, and it's confusing:

Amarr Carrier skill prerequisites:
1: Capital Ships 3
2: Amarr Battleship 5
3: Drone Interfacing 5

Archon prerequisites:
1. Capital Ships 1
2. Amarr Carrier 1
3. Jump Drive Operation 1

Why isn't the skill Amarr Carrier listed as the PRIMARY prerequisite for the ship? It's listed as secondary.

Why does the ship require Capital Ships 1 when the skill for it requires Capital Ships 3?

For the list of skills for the ship, why don't you list all the Amarr Carrier skill sub-prerequisites under the skill itself (currently in he Secondary requirements)? Why do you split the skills that are prerequisite for the skill Amarr Carrier all over the place inside the Archon list?

This carries over to the "AFTER" screenshot you have posted for the Archon, making it even more confusing. Because you added the additional skills to the Secondary category.


Here is what would make sense to me for "Archon, AFTER:"

Primary Skills:
Amarr Carrier 1
+ all the prerequisites for that skill

Secondary Skills:
Jump Fuel Conservation 4
+ JFC skill prerequisites
Jump Drive Calibration 3
+ JDC skill prerequisites

Tertiary Skills:
Fighters 1?
Fighter-Bombers for the super-carrier?
other skills?
or no tertiary at all


Your categories of Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary don't make sense, for ships.

For skills, the categories kinda make sense.

But for ships they are a mess.
stoicfaux
#355 - 2013-02-08 01:10:49 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
In before Chr..... seriously?

Given the amounts of money involved in RMT and the surplus of cheap technical talent worldwide, I don't think you fully appreciate just how compromised CCP's servers, corporate network, and offices are...

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#356 - 2013-02-08 01:12:38 UTC
Pretty much exactly what I was expecting, except for some of the T2 skill changes, But it all looks great and very logical.

Glad so see it is now basically written in stone, so the debates and constant complaints can stop.

Only question left is when will the summer expansion come out. We have been told late spring, and I am pretty sure I read somewhere mid to late may, if all stays on schedule. Is this accurate? Or can we expect it sooner? or later? is it not decided yet?

I only ask as it seems the biggest issue many players have is how long they can wait to get these skills trained to 5. Battlecruisers is about a 1 month train. Attribute remaps can affect this by several days. Players do not want to panic and train it right away if their attributes are not ideal, especially if they can wait until next month when a new remap comes up, and then train it, and a bunch of other ship command skills under an ideal remap.

If the summer expansion is going to be released in late May or early June, then players with a remap coming up some time between now and the end of April can wait until their remap to to start battlecruiser 5 training. But if it will be released in mid may they need to start training it by early to mid April.

This seems to be the biggest concern I have come across in the last 6 months with regard to the skill changes.

Personally I already have them trained on all my active characters, but if I did not I would say to start BC 5 no later than the 1st of April, yet many players are waiting for a solid date to be given them by someone from CCP.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#357 - 2013-02-08 01:13:34 UTC
The only complaint I have, is this doesn't seem as great as I had hoped it would be.

I think I liked the older way of lvling too much, where you tried to lvl everything, rather then importance on individual ships.

I don't feel most modules and the extra things to ship hulls are really fair or balanced, and don't really feel safe pinning all my hopes on one ship really.

I don't really feel like training anything up in the game really, with this new swing to things, especially with how bad the balance is. Honestly I would rather wait a year or two for issues to be fixed then continue lvling and unlocking new ships.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
PMolkenthin
Nostalgia Inc.
#358 - 2013-02-08 01:15:04 UTC  |  Edited by: PMolkenthin
So, just to clarify. I have all racial cruisers to 5, destroyers 5, and battlecruisers 5. After the changes I will have all racial destroyers and all racial battlecruisers to 5 right.
Will I get extra SP to assign on top of this???
FluffyDice
Kronos Research
#359 - 2013-02-08 01:15:08 UTC
So after my alt trains for one freighter, in less than three days he can fly all of them? Am I the only one that seems ridiculous to?
stoicfaux
#360 - 2013-02-08 01:30:01 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.


    • -1 That's just rude.

    edit: why? because of the remaps, planning, skill books, opportunity cost, etc. It's too harsh to dump on a vet's time like that.


    Quote:
    We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.
    [/list]


    /bated_breath

    Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.