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Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2013-02-07 15:53:40 UTC
I'm pretty sure the goal of balancing wasn't to arbitrarily add training time to things.
It's not as if most super pilots don't train these things before getting in them anyway.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#122 - 2013-02-07 15:53:55 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Iosue wrote:
Irregessa wrote:
So, someone I know is saying that when they had Large Railgun Spec 2 trained and happened to lose Large Hybrid Turret 5 due to dying in an insufficient clone, he could not continue to train Large Railgun Spec until he got Large Hybrid Turret back up to 5 again.

If that is how it works, if I have a character who presently knows Command Ships 3 but doesn't have the leadership skills to 5, he won't be able to train Command Ships 4 until he does?

edit: I now have had multiple people tell me they have had the above situation happen to them.


that's not how it works. if you have the skill injected, you can train it. i've tested this several times, mostly on cyno alts that loose electronics V due to no clones.

well, i would tend to believe a CCP employe more than you, and it as clearly be said that having the skill without the prereq is OK to fly the ship, but that missing a prereq to a skill will prevent you from skilling it more until you have the prereq:

CCP RubberBAND wrote:

Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#123 - 2013-02-07 15:55:02 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Komisches wrote:
Brain is tired, missed something in that read: if i have frigate5/cruiser5 (across all races already) battlecruisers 5 and destroyers 5 making me able to fly all the damn ships, what the hell happens to all my skills?


Simple, if you have all these skills to 5 then you are golden:


  • Battlecruisers and Destroyers 5 will be removed from your character sheet
  • We will give you Amarr Destroyer 5, Caldari Destroyer 5, Gallente Destroyer 5, Minmatar Destroyer 5, Amarr Battlecruiser 5, Caldari Battlecruiser 5, Gallente Battlecruiser 5 and Minmatar Battlecruiser 5 because you had all racial frigates and cruisers skills past 3 on top of Battlecruisers and Destroyers 5.


That's explained in the blog P

Bam! My clones just got more expensive ShockedLol

Signatures should be used responsibly...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2013-02-07 15:56:02 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Iosue wrote:
Irregessa wrote:
So, someone I know is saying that when they had Large Railgun Spec 2 trained and happened to lose Large Hybrid Turret 5 due to dying in an insufficient clone, he could not continue to train Large Railgun Spec until he got Large Hybrid Turret back up to 5 again.

If that is how it works, if I have a character who presently knows Command Ships 3 but doesn't have the leadership skills to 5, he won't be able to train Command Ships 4 until he does?

edit: I now have had multiple people tell me they have had the above situation happen to them.


that's not how it works. if you have the skill injected, you can train it. i've tested this several times, mostly on cyno alts that loose electronics V due to no clones.

well, i would tend to believe a CCP employe more than you, and it as clearly be said that having the skill without the prereq is OK to fly the ship, but that missing a prereq to a skill will prevent you from skilling it more until you have the prereq

That's not what CCP RubberBand actually said.
Although their answer was extremely poor and didn't actually address the specific question being asked.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#125 - 2013-02-07 15:58:19 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

That's not what CCP RubberBand actually said.
Although their answer was extremely poor and didn't actually address the specific question being asked.


reading is important:

CCP RubberBAND wrote:

Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained.


so if there is a NEW prereq for a skill you already have trained, you will be able to fly the ship BUT not be able to train the skill until you meet the new prereq
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#126 - 2013-02-07 16:01:03 UTC
Quote:
Still looking at the tree above, some tech 2 ships require sets of skills that are not relevant to the hull you are specializing into.


Then later...

Quote:
Recon Ships

- Cloaking 4 added as skill requirement of the Recon Ships skill


So to fly a Curse, Rook, Huginn or Lachesis, none of which get bonuses to fit or fly with cloaks, you're adding a cloaking skill requirement?

The relevance to the hull being specialized into is lacking.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#127 - 2013-02-07 16:01:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Iosue wrote:
Irregessa wrote:
So, someone I know is saying that when they had Large Railgun Spec 2 trained and happened to lose Large Hybrid Turret 5 due to dying in an insufficient clone, he could not continue to train Large Railgun Spec until he got Large Hybrid Turret back up to 5 again.

If that is how it works, if I have a character who presently knows Command Ships 3 but doesn't have the leadership skills to 5, he won't be able to train Command Ships 4 until he does?

edit: I now have had multiple people tell me they have had the above situation happen to them.


that's not how it works. if you have the skill injected, you can train it. i've tested this several times, mostly on cyno alts that loose electronics V due to no clones.

well, i would tend to believe a CCP employe more than you, and it as clearly be said that having the skill without the prereq is OK to fly the ship, but that missing a prereq to a skill will prevent you from skilling it more until you have the prereq

That's not what CCP RubberBand actually said.
Although their answer was extremely poor and didn't actually address the specific question being asked.

I've had this situation happen to me a few times. If the skill is injected you can train it... however sometimes things get a little buggy. I remember I had to have a GM help me one time because I had a skill that got stuck with the skill training completion imminent error... the GM fixed me but I went back and fixed the prerequisite skills just so I wouldn't have to go through that again. YES - if a skill is injected you can train it regardless of whether or not you have the pre-reqs, just be prepared for a little potential buggyness. (edit: also, I could see a situation where a bonus is based on a pre-req that you didn't have and you ended up multiplying by zero or some negative number. That could suck for you...)

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Laurinius
Perkone
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-02-07 16:02:16 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

That's not what CCP RubberBand actually said.
Although their answer was extremely poor and didn't actually address the specific question being asked.


reading is important:

CCP RubberBAND wrote:

Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained.


Precise description is also important:
With "train", did he mean "inject (and train)" or "train (when already injected)"?
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2013-02-07 16:02:47 UTC
squees with delight!!!

as a max leadership pilot (yes even mining director and fleet command) this first step towards making my beloved command ships viable again instead of the mind numbing alt work of offgrid t3s is filling me with almost as much love as when i saw my husband for the first time!

almost

*pets her sad looking damnation* there there girl... soon.. soon

Linda
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#130 - 2013-02-07 16:05:09 UTC
Gogela wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Iosue wrote:
Irregessa wrote:
So, someone I know is saying that when they had Large Railgun Spec 2 trained and happened to lose Large Hybrid Turret 5 due to dying in an insufficient clone, he could not continue to train Large Railgun Spec until he got Large Hybrid Turret back up to 5 again.

If that is how it works, if I have a character who presently knows Command Ships 3 but doesn't have the leadership skills to 5, he won't be able to train Command Ships 4 until he does?

edit: I now have had multiple people tell me they have had the above situation happen to them.


that's not how it works. if you have the skill injected, you can train it. i've tested this several times, mostly on cyno alts that loose electronics V due to no clones.

well, i would tend to believe a CCP employe more than you, and it as clearly be said that having the skill without the prereq is OK to fly the ship, but that missing a prereq to a skill will prevent you from skilling it more until you have the prereq

That's not what CCP RubberBand actually said.
Although their answer was extremely poor and didn't actually address the specific question being asked.

I've had this situation happen to me a few times. If the skill is injected you can train it... however sometimes things get a little buggy. I remember I had to have a GM help me one time because I had a skill that got stuck with the skill training completion imminent error... the GM fixed me but I went back and fixed the prerequisite skills just so I wouldn't have to go through that again. YES - if a skill is injected you can train it regardless of whether or not you have the pre-reqs, just be prepared for a little potential buggyness.

wich make sens, because the only way to loose SP is loosing a pod with not upgraded enought clone.

and the SP loos hits the latest / currently training skill, so there is now way that this impact a skill prereq
Sturmwolke
#131 - 2013-02-07 16:05:47 UTC
Excellent write-up. Excellent details.
Thumbs up from me.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#132 - 2013-02-07 16:05:50 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:

Can you please answer directly: do we have to train skill prerequisites to progress in that skill?
To level Freighters V without Advanced Spaceships Command V, or to maximize Command ships V without all those useless links?
I dont worry about "you will able to fly" thing. I want to know if I need to maximize skills now to skip useless skills that you introduced as prerequisites for command ships today.


Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained.

So for the Fenrir you will need to first have Advanced Spaceship Command at level V before you can start training Minmatar Freighter, but the prerequisite for that skill has changed.

I'm not sure you got the question. Let me try:

Say I currently have Gallente Freighter 4 and Advanced Spaceship command 4. After the change I know I will still be able to fly my freighter. But will I be able to train Gallente Freighter to 5 after the change? Or do I have to get the Advanced Spaceship Command skill to 5 first?

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seth Hendar
I love you miners
#133 - 2013-02-07 16:06:21 UTC
Laurinius wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

That's not what CCP RubberBand actually said.
Although their answer was extremely poor and didn't actually address the specific question being asked.


reading is important:

CCP RubberBAND wrote:

Independent of ships if the skill training requirements change, then yes. In order to train those skills after the expansion hits you will need those skills trained.


Precise description is also important:
With "train", did he mean "inject (and train)" or "train (when already injected)"?


i would go for train, because we were talking about skills already injected....

so unless you manage to inject a skill twice....
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#134 - 2013-02-07 16:09:07 UTC
I would just like to confirm three changes in this dev blog as regards the CCP standard line that "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now." :

Orca : ORE Industrial level 3 required.
Mining Barge : Mining Frigate level 3 required.
Freighter : Advanced Spaceship Command LEVEL 5 REQUIRED!

Does the CCP concept "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now." apply to the above three vessels and the changes you wish to make to their skill requirements Question And if not then why not QuestionShocked

The Orca & Mining Barge change are not that big a deal but the change to Freighters, if not given to those who can currently fly Freighters, is a serious lump of training - over thirty days if I'm not mistaken. This could temporarily disrupt courier services across New Eden so if you do not intend to give this skill to those who can fly Freighters at the changeover point I think you
should do so.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Drosal Inkunen
Spreadsheeters
#135 - 2013-02-07 16:09:09 UTC
Bariolage wrote:
Most thorough blog post ever. 6 pages of questions in 3 hours.

A lot of the questions are the same people asking the same thing. It was answered in the dev blog and answered several times in the thread.

It all comes down to people not knowing how nested requirements work.

(Also quite a few people not knowing the difference between the "X Warfare" skill and the "X Warfare Specialist" skill.
Ogopogo Mu
O C C U P Y
#136 - 2013-02-07 16:09:16 UTC
ITT the Nighthawk is finally fixed by making it harder to train for.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#137 - 2013-02-07 16:09:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
seth Hendar wrote:
Gogela wrote:

I've had this situation happen to me a few times. If the skill is injected you can train it... however sometimes things get a little buggy. I remember I had to have a GM help me one time because I had a skill that got stuck with the skill training completion imminent error... the GM fixed me but I went back and fixed the prerequisite skills just so I wouldn't have to go through that again. YES - if a skill is injected you can train it regardless of whether or not you have the pre-reqs, just be prepared for a little potential buggyness.

wich make sens, because the only way to loose SP is loosing a pod with not upgraded enought clone.

and the SP loos hits the latest / currently training skill, so there is now way that this impact a skill prereq

Actually they've changed skill reqs before on other stuff. I don't remember all of them, but for one of them they were changing something about shields while I was training capital shields boosters to one and I barely had the old pre-reqs, and then they changed something and I didn't have them anymore. I've since trained V's in the pre-reqs... but at the time my cap shield booster training got stuck for several days... and even after the GM fixed it it was still acting weird. I don't wish that frustration on anyone else. Get the damn pre-reqs would be my advice.

Vincent Athena wrote:

I'm not sure you got the question. Let me try:

Say I currently have Gallente Freighter 4 and Advanced Spaceship command 4. After the change I know I will still be able to fly my freighter. But will I be able to train Gallente Freighter to 5 after the change? Or do I have to get the Advanced Spaceship Command skill to 5 first?

You could go freighter 5 w/o Advanced Spaceship Command to V b/c the gallente freighter skill is already injected.

edit: OK so this is changing. Looks like you CANNOT continue training a skill if the prerequisites are not met.

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Anthar Thebess
#138 - 2013-02-07 16:10:54 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
Almost one year ago, CCP Ytterbium announced plans to split the Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills into racial equivalents for each of the factions. This change will go through in the expansion planned for this summer and Ytterbium has penned all of the details into one dev blog.

You can read it all here.

Please remember that if you can fly it before the split, you can fly it after. This applies to all of the listed changes. We would love to hear your feedback and comments on the coming changes in this thread.



Ok i see some hole in case of skill reimbursement.
This char:
I fly electronic attack ships, and use them ... but i dont have Long Range Targeting LvL 5 - other skills where more important.
So if i fly this now - will i get Long Range Targeting LvL 5 ?

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Juwi Kotch
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2013-02-07 16:11:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Juwi Kotch
Lady Naween wrote:
squees with delight!!!

as a max leadership pilot (yes even mining director and fleet command) this first step towards making my beloved command ships viable again instead of the mind numbing alt work of offgrid t3s is filling me with almost as much love as when i saw my husband for the first time!

I'm on the same page. I'm not maxxed out in leadership, but with close to 6 mil SP in that group I have no prereq problems at all to fly those ships. On the contrary, since I will get BC5 for all races, but don't have the racial cruisers at 5 (all at 4 atm, besides Gallente at 5) I will suddenly be able to jump into all command ships where I could enter the Gallente one only until then.

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#140 - 2013-02-07 16:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Haifisch Zahne
It is false and misleading to say "If you can fly it now, you will be able to fly it after the changes."

You only mean, "We will break the rules at the time of the change *just this one time*".

It is absolutely not necessary that someone has the required skills to fly a ship they can fly now. The "Keep your Medical Clone Insurance Up-to-Date" is a sad excuse to cover-up the changes made which truly could affect the ability to fly a ship one can fly now.

Further, given the number of SP that has been wasted training some skills to higher levels than necessary after the changes (OMG what a waste of my time to train Gallente Industrial V as well as others !!!), CCP should absolutely, without hestitation, give players any and all skills to full listed requirements that are now added to a ship we "can fly now" so that we truly can fly it after the changes.

These changes have been disruptive to our normal skill training. CCP announced almost a year ago some of these changes and warned to train them soon. The fact that the ship changes announced as Coming Soon TM were only minor tweaks to Titans escaped those players who were eager to blame those of us that did train these skill AS CCP TOLD US TO DO, and no doubt already had the skills trained anyway. AND, I trained them while I was neural mapped wrong and lost countless *DAYS* that could have been spent now when I am correctly neural mapped. Again, more reason to give us skills that we will ACTUALLY need to fly the ships we can fly now rather than just pay lip service and give excuses that it will be OUR FAULT if we get podded without insurance.