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A proposal to make Covert Ops more challenging by adding a counter mechanic.

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Herr Esiq
Viziam
#21 - 2013-02-05 11:12:10 UTC
Local is already too much of a intel tool to start nerfing cloaked ships. Disagree? Look at Dotlan for systems that are being ratted 23.5/7 by carriers in 0.0, enter such system and all bots/farmers dock up.

Give us a way to really sneak up on someone and those changes make sense. Now you just want to farm while being just as safe as staying docked.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#22 - 2013-02-05 21:10:46 UTC
AFK cloaking is a problem only for AFK ratters.
Winthorp
#23 - 2013-02-06 10:49:11 UTC
Add a 10-15 sec delay to local and you will see a much more vibrant nullsec. Sure there will be lots of carebear tears but they will learn to adapt.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#24 - 2013-02-06 21:38:16 UTC
Lets get rid of local automatically displaying people. I am good with that.

I just do not want to see my Buzzard nerfed with timing or fuel requirements some yahoos suggest. My main point is to suggest a way that avoid changing cloaking while making the other party satisfied but having to work towards their satisfaction.

And... I would love to launch bombs while cloaked Twisted

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#25 - 2013-02-06 21:39:40 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Add a 10-15 sec delay to local and you will see a much more vibrant nullsec. Sure there will be lots of carebear tears but they will learn to adapt.


It would be simpler to make Low Sec and Null Local identical to Worm Hole Local - remove the auto-information completely.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Winthorp
#26 - 2013-02-06 21:49:32 UTC
Petrified wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
Add a 10-15 sec delay to local and you will see a much more vibrant nullsec. Sure there will be lots of carebear tears but they will learn to adapt.


It would be simpler to make Low Sec and Null Local identical to Worm Hole Local - remove the auto-information completely.


We could only hope :)

Imagine the tears if they had to rat not knowing they could be jumped at any time, who could ever rat like this..... Ohh wait we do now its great.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#27 - 2013-02-07 07:17:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Winthorp wrote:
Petrified wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
Add a 10-15 sec delay to local and you will see a much more vibrant nullsec. Sure there will be lots of carebear tears but they will learn to adapt.


It would be simpler to make Low Sec and Null Local identical to Worm Hole Local - remove the auto-information completely.


We could only hope :)

Imagine the tears if they had to rat not knowing they could be jumped at any time, who could ever rat like this..... Ohh wait we do now its great.


Actually good luck finding anyone to gank on that basis, most will be doing missions and incursions in HS with that change, I will do you a deal however we make the cyno jammer in system cost nothing to install and maintain and can be installed from day one once a TCU is installed , then yes, good bye local. At this point systems with only one entry point will become the new tech, lol.

But it will become too easy for you gank bears, you will not have to work for it at all.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#28 - 2013-02-07 08:59:37 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
Petrified wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
Add a 10-15 sec delay to local and you will see a much more vibrant nullsec. Sure there will be lots of carebear tears but they will learn to adapt.


It would be simpler to make Low Sec and Null Local identical to Worm Hole Local - remove the auto-information completely.


We could only hope :)

Imagine the tears if they had to rat not knowing they could be jumped at any time, who could ever rat like this..... Ohh wait we do now its great.


Actually good luck finding anyone to gank on that basis, most will be doing missions and incursions in HS with that change, I will do you a deal however we make the cyno jammer in system cost nothing to install and maintain and can be installed from day one once a TCU is installed , then yes, good bye local. At this point systems with only one entry point will become the new tech, lol.


Exactly where they bloody should be if they're that risk and pvp averse. Honestly, the "threat" of people - who don't do anything other than dock/pos up the second a none-blue enters local anyway - heading back to highsec doesn't bother me.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#29 - 2013-02-07 10:19:52 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
Petrified wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
Add a 10-15 sec delay to local and you will see a much more vibrant nullsec. Sure there will be lots of carebear tears but they will learn to adapt.


It would be simpler to make Low Sec and Null Local identical to Worm Hole Local - remove the auto-information completely.


We could only hope :)

Imagine the tears if they had to rat not knowing they could be jumped at any time, who could ever rat like this..... Ohh wait we do now its great.


Actually good luck finding anyone to gank on that basis, most will be doing missions and incursions in HS with that change, I will do you a deal however we make the cyno jammer in system cost nothing to install and maintain and can be installed from day one once a TCU is installed , then yes, good bye local. At this point systems with only one entry point will become the new tech, lol.


Exactly where they bloody should be if they're that risk and pvp averse. Honestly, the "threat" of people - who don't do anything other than dock/pos up the second a none-blue enters local anyway - heading back to highsec doesn't bother me.


Risk adverse, let me tell you about risk, when your clever you control your risk, risk adverse in the eyes of gank bears is people who shy away from combat when in the wrong ship, hey stay there in a non-PvP ship so I can blow you up and pad my killboard, be a good sport, lol, I have lost count of the number of times I re-shipped and found the gank bear running like a headless chicken, it is always fun!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Princess Saskia
Hyperfleet Industries
#30 - 2013-02-07 10:30:29 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
there is no issue with cloaking. like at all.

 ♥ 
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#31 - 2013-02-07 10:42:11 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Risk adverse, let me tell you about risk, when your clever you control your risk, risk adverse in the eyes of gank bears is people who shy away from combat when in the wrong ship, hey stay there in a non-PvP ship so I can blow you up and pad my killboard, be a good sport, lol, I have lost count of the number of times I re-shipped and found the gank bear running like a headless chicken, it is always fun!


I meant the risk averse types who would dock/pos up and just sit there indefinitely. If they all flocked back to highsec then what difference does it make for people looking for someone to fight? The other type - like yourself - don't strike me as the ones who'd run crying to highsec if changes were made to how local works
Probebly Afk Cloaking
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-02-07 11:13:44 UTC
afk cloaking working as intended
Aria Ta'Rohk
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-02-07 12:45:33 UTC
Probebly Afk Cloaking wrote:
afk cloaking working as intended

I'll take 2 carebears to go, with extra tears
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#34 - 2013-02-07 13:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Risk adverse, let me tell you about risk, when your clever you control your risk, risk adverse in the eyes of gank bears is people who shy away from combat when in the wrong ship, hey stay there in a non-PvP ship so I can blow you up and pad my killboard, be a good sport, lol, I have lost count of the number of times I re-shipped and found the gank bear running like a headless chicken, it is always fun!


I meant the risk averse types who would dock/pos up and just sit there indefinitely. If they all flocked back to highsec then what difference does it make for people looking for someone to fight? The other type - like yourself - don't strike me as the ones who'd run crying to highsec if changes were made to how local works


I am going to disappoint you, because without local I would not be able to assess risk at all and therefore ratting in 0.0 would be a lottery and not something that I do in a cold calculated way, and I say that as someone who has ratted with reds in local because I had assessed the risk. I think the remove local attitude is a reaction to the call to nerf cloaking, I disagree with both being nerfed, I like it as it is. And just be clear, WH's work without local because smart players working as a team can control the risk, they certainly do not have anything like the sudden cyno and incomes a full on gank fleet in a matter of seconds. I have faith in CCP not changing either cloaking or local in 0.0 / low sec.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-02-07 14:24:52 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
What your system does is create a mechanic that can and will be used over and over and over and over again until the cloaker is found and removed... talking away any reasonable ability for a smaller force to attack the industry of a 0.0 alliance.

You mean attacker won't be able to just enter system, hide somewhere and go shopping for several hours to **** off carebears?
And he will need to be actually active and not-AFK while "attacking industry in 0.0"? Shocked


That can't be done!

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#36 - 2013-02-07 19:51:39 UTC
So how about cloaks make you vanish off of local chat. If you are afk cloaked, nobody knows. You go shopping but you don't affect the game in the manner which some here are complaining. Would that be better? I'd prefer it.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#37 - 2013-02-08 00:23:49 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I am going to disappoint you, because without local I would not be able to assess risk at all and therefore ratting in 0.0 would be a lottery and not something that I do in a cold calculated way, and I say that as someone who has ratted with reds in local because I had assessed the risk. I think the remove local attitude is a reaction to the call to nerf cloaking, I disagree with both being nerfed, I like it as it is. And just be clear, WH's work without local because smart players working as a team can control the risk, they certainly do not have anything like the sudden cyno and incomes a full on gank fleet in a matter of seconds. I have faith in CCP not changing either cloaking or local in 0.0 / low sec.


Confirming WH corps control their risk by hitting dscan constantly, having DSP's out and running to detect new signatures, critting the static at the least, bubbling it, not warping to the new static, having cloaky falcon alts, and so on. People in wormholes actively control risk via time and attention intensive methods.

There's something called an inbound K162 in a wormhole, which works exactly like a cyno. Plus you get people who camp your wormhole for days, weeks and months, to snag your tasty faction rattler. Totally the same as keeping Local open.

Nullbears, like you? You control your risk by looking at Local. Fin. Just the fact you know there's reds in system, how many, and who (so you can check their KB for evidence of BLOPs), is a great boon, and allows you to "assess" your risk, ie, align to a celestial.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#38 - 2013-02-08 04:50:02 UTC
Nullbears, all the baby seal curb stomping helplessness, but with added 0.0 baseless bravado.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#39 - 2013-02-08 08:17:33 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Dracvlad wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Risk adverse, let me tell you about risk, when your clever you control your risk, risk adverse in the eyes of gank bears is people who shy away from combat when in the wrong ship, hey stay there in a non-PvP ship so I can blow you up and pad my killboard, be a good sport, lol, I have lost count of the number of times I re-shipped and found the gank bear running like a headless chicken, it is always fun!


I meant the risk averse types who would dock/pos up and just sit there indefinitely. If they all flocked back to highsec then what difference does it make for people looking for someone to fight? The other type - like yourself - don't strike me as the ones who'd run crying to highsec if changes were made to how local works


I am going to disappoint you, because without local I would not be able to assess risk at all and therefore ratting in 0.0 would be a lottery and not something that I do in a cold calculated way, and I say that as someone who has ratted with reds in local because I had assessed the risk. I think the remove local attitude is a reaction to the call to nerf cloaking, I disagree with both being nerfed, I like it as it is. And just be clear, WH's work without local because smart players working as a team can control the risk, they certainly do not have anything like the sudden cyno and incomes a full on gank fleet in a matter of seconds. I have faith in CCP not changing either cloaking or local in 0.0 / low sec.


So 'smart', hardworking players in wormholes can assess and deal with the risk without local, but people in nullsec are incapable of doing the same?

Um, why?

Again, the only difference I see in nullsec (or at least the only one that makes it *more* difficult) is cynos - but that's an issue with cynos.

Edit: And as a poster above said, k162s are roughly equivalent to cynos as far as the threat posed. Yeah, incoming wormholes have mass limits, but they're more than enough to allow a big enough fleet to kill lone or small scale PVE ops.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#40 - 2013-02-09 14:37:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Risk adverse, let me tell you about risk, when your clever you control your risk, risk adverse in the eyes of gank bears is people who shy away from combat when in the wrong ship, hey stay there in a non-PvP ship so I can blow you up and pad my killboard, be a good sport, lol, I have lost count of the number of times I re-shipped and found the gank bear running like a headless chicken, it is always fun!


I meant the risk averse types who would dock/pos up and just sit there indefinitely. If they all flocked back to highsec then what difference does it make for people looking for someone to fight? The other type - like yourself - don't strike me as the ones who'd run crying to highsec if changes were made to how local works


I am going to disappoint you, because without local I would not be able to assess risk at all and therefore ratting in 0.0 would be a lottery and not something that I do in a cold calculated way, and I say that as someone who has ratted with reds in local because I had assessed the risk. I think the remove local attitude is a reaction to the call to nerf cloaking, I disagree with both being nerfed, I like it as it is. And just be clear, WH's work without local because smart players working as a team can control the risk, they certainly do not have anything like the sudden cyno and incomes a full on gank fleet in a matter of seconds. I have faith in CCP not changing either cloaking or local in 0.0 / low sec.


So 'smart', hardworking players in wormholes can assess and deal with the risk without local, but people in nullsec are incapable of doing the same?

Um, why?

Again, the only difference I see in nullsec (or at least the only one that makes it *more* difficult) is cynos - but that's an issue with cynos.

Edit: And as a poster above said, k162s are roughly equivalent to cynos as far as the threat posed. Yeah, incoming wormholes have mass limits, but they're more than enough to allow a big enough fleet to kill lone or small scale PVE ops.


Currently I can assess who is in local and work out if he has the capability to take me out, I need that because of cyno's, it is not an issue with cyno's it is the issue with null, without local there is no way you can assess risk.

Also I do not agree with k162's being anywhere equivalent to a cyno, can you get a Titan or multiple Supers through them, no!

I see where you are coming from, but at the moment lots of people still get caught for a number of reasons with local being there, but without local small and medium sized entities with one or two systems can not survive in null, hell its bad enough as it is now, but it will be so much worse. At that point no more carrier ratting and people will make their money in incursions and missions and not in 0.0, so no reason to be there. I hate doing missions and incursions, the risk in 0.0 is what makes it fun for me, but I have to be able to control that risk, without that there is no fun, its just pot luck and sorry that will be the end of my time playing Eve, which to be honest is getting close to that now.

Anyway the issue of Local based Intel is also based on there being such huge coalitions with huge Local Intel networks, if you had multiple small alliances then local based intel will be ineffective!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
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