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How EVE Became Obsolete (And why CCP hasn’t noticed)

First post
Author
Izzy Lizzy
Doomheim
#441 - 2013-02-07 07:52:37 UTC
Can't we just go back to predicting the demise of the radio due to television like we used to in the 1940's? Most of those prophets are dead now but there's still time to reclaim the faith.
Ai Shun
#442 - 2013-02-07 08:03:05 UTC
Ageck Kalenia wrote:
I love PCs as much as anyone, but I can also look ahead and see the future of computing lies elsewhere.


And 640KB is enough for anyone!
Nian Banks
Berserkers of Aesir
#443 - 2013-02-07 08:36:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Nian Banks
Glathull wrote:

Ageck Kalenia- Within two years, ARM devices will account for more than half of all personal computer sales.

[Only if you count phones as personal computers. And I don't.]


Several large companies are looking at making Android powered laptops, they are cheap to build and use far less power vs a traditional x86 system. Nvidia and AMD are both spending allot of money in ARM chips, Oh and so is Intel....


Glathull wrote:

Ageck Kalenia- 97% of those devices will employ touch as their primary input. A full 50% will support gesture input and 10% will natively display stereoscopic 3D.

[No. 100% of them will employ touch as primary input. Because they will all be phones and tablets. 100% will support gesture input because you can't have a touch-based device that doesn't. And less than 1% will natively display 3D of any kind. It's a stupid market that no one wants. Some idiot company will keep trying to make it work, but it won't ever catch on. You people don't get it. We already see the world in 3D. It's the one feature we don't need in am effing device.]


EvE would work quite well on touch screens, especially on the 7"+ sized tablets, 3D may be a gimmick, but its the gimmicks of today that become the norm tomorrow, I remember how 3D graphics was a gimmick back in the platformer days. Those late 80's 3d scene demos were cool...


Glathull wrote:

Ageck Kalenia- The PC gaming industry has little appetite for Windows 8, as evidenced by leaders such as Valve Software. Valve is currently backing an aggressive transition to Steam for Linux, with a repository of 40 games and counting already available to open-source users. Valve is also throwing support behind Oculus Rift, a revolutionary developing virtual reality system.

[Windows 8 has no problems playing any of the games that I play. That's not an exhaustive list. I don't see anyone touting any games as Win8 only. The gaming world would be quite well off if people would get off they're XP asses and upgrade to Win7. Win* adoption has nothing to do with game design priorities right now.]


Actually the biggest issue, and I remember well the debates,I've been playing eve long enough. Was that laptops are expensive and you can't upgrade their graphics chip. So people were stuck with ageing GPU's and didn't want CCP to completely obsolete their laptop. Given that most people use laptops now, not desktops, its not a $100 discrete graphics card fix for them. Its a $600 new laptop, likely $1200 if you want something half decent. I would cry foul too if I was told by a gaming company that to continue playing a game I invested years in to,that I would have to fork out $1k.

Glathull wrote:

Ageck Kalenia- All this points to something CCP isn't admitting: their flagship game title could soon become too damn inconvenient to play if it remains bound for all time to traditional PCs.

[Yes. Of course. A game where half the subscribers can't be bothered to upgrade to the latest version of DirectX is in danger of being obsoleted by tablets with beautiful touch interfaces. Gotcha.]


Actually I would and so would many others, to play on a mobile device (not a laptop), On the train to work, I could carebear for an hour, or chat. A simple mission while waiting for the doctor, that would be nice.

Glathull wrote:

Ageck Kalenia- A whole 'nother big bag of blargh . . . Ugh. I agree windows 8 is a bomb. But taking a back seat to Ubuntu? You are smoking some fine stuff there.

There are lots of other problems with your analysis as well. Conflating a "tablet" market with the iPad market is only one of them. No other tablets are actually selling at the moment.

But your biggest problem is thinking that in order to survive, EvE has to appeal to a large market. EvE isn't a new social network that needs to have as many users as possible to hope to someday sell advertising (ahem, Google+). EvE already has a sustainable business model.

There will always be people who have desktops in addition to laptops, iPads, smartphones, and other ancillary devices. EvE has never appealed to anyone aside from that market. And it isn't going anywhere.]



What are you smoking? Your talking crap. Samsung are selling tablets like hotcakes, what about phablets? Those 5.5"+ sized phones with quad core cpu's. Or how about the Nexus 7 and 10? All those are selling like crazy, then again I guess you believe marketing BS from apple...




Either way, CCP if they don't invest in arm based systems, for the very least , release an app to allow skills changing and chat. They are not serving their user base properly. Poor form.
Nate Guralman
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#444 - 2013-02-07 18:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nate Guralman
Ageck Kalenia wrote:
The numbers don't lie. The traditional PC is walking dead. It pains me to admit as much as anyone.


No, not even close. In fact, despite your quoting of numbers, I don't think you did any serious analysis.

For one, 2012 PC shipments were somewhere around 348,500,000 units. And that's the number of shipped PCs, i.e. new PCs. Compared to the 122M tablets shipped you quoted, PC sales are still 3X bigger than tablets.

You're correct in saying that tablet sales are growing, but not exponentially. In fact, it's quite linear (http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/30/tablet-shipments-to-reach-383-3-million-by-2017-46-in-emerging-markets/).

And finally, what makes you believe that tablets are a substitute for PCs? Right now, they're a complimentary product. In other words, a lot of people who own tablets also own PCs. There's no reason to suggest that this trend won't continue. I own both, and I while I love my tablet, it's not going to replace my PC, ever. I want my large screens, I want my keyboard and I want my mouse, and that's not going to change. The only way a tablet will replace my PC is when I can plug it into a docking station, and keep using my peripherals.

And if that ever happens, then we'll be using tablets roughly in the same way as a PC, anyway. Hell, we've been doing that with laptops forever. In fact, my dream is to have a smart phone with that kind of power, so that I can just drop it into a cradle and get the screen-keyboard-mouse combo. Once I'm done working for the day, grab phone from its cradle, put it in my pocket, and off I go, my computer with me all the time.

So, here's my conclusion: PCs aren't going to disappear in the near future, and even if they were, EVE can live on with whatever computing device we have.

Edit: grammar, spelling 'n stuff.
Wodensun
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#445 - 2013-02-07 18:29:07 UTC
Nate Guralman wrote:
Ageck Kalenia wrote:
The numbers don't lie. The traditional PC is walking dead. It pains me to admit as much as anyone.


No, not even close. In fact, despite your quoting of numbers, I don't think you did any serious analysis.

For one, 2012 PC shipments were in around somewhere around 348,500,000 units shipped. And that's number of shipped PCs, i.e. new PCs. Compared to the 112M tablets shipped you quoted, PC sales are still 3X bigger than tablets.

You're correct in saying that tablet sales are growing, but not exponentially. In fact, it's quite linear (http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/30/tablet-shipments-to-reach-383-3-million-by-2017-46-in-emerging-markets/).

And finally, what makes you believe that tablets are a substitute for PCs? Right now, they're a complimentary product. In other words, a lot of people who own tablets also own PCs. There's no reason to suggest that this trent won't continue. I own both, and I while I love my tablet, it's not going to replace my PC, ever. I want my large screens, I want my keyboard and I want my mouse, and that's not going to change. The only way it will replace my PC is when I can plug it into a docking station, and keep using my peripherals.

And if that ever happens, then we'll be using tablets roughly in the same way as a PC. Hell, we've been doing that with laptops forever. In fact, my dream is to have a smart phone with that kind of power, so that I can just drop it into a cradle and get the screen-keyboard-mouse combo. Once I'm done working for the day, grab phone from its cradle, put it in my pocket, and off I go, my computer with me all the time.

So, here's my conclusion: PCs aren't going to disappear in the near future, and even if they were, EVE can live on with whatever computing device we have.



/thread

Do not give me likes them 101 likes arent a accident...

SoOza N'GasZ
L F C
Ethereal Dawn
#446 - 2013-02-08 14:16:05 UTC
The reason pc numbers are dropping is because people with no tech knowledge all used to need to buy a pc to surf the net,... now they buy tablets... all sincere gamers and tech interested people and people who make stuff for tablets and phones.... nedd pcs. pc will never die.

Legba

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2013-02-08 16:34:14 UTC
EVE has been dying before I started playing, was dying when I was playing, and after taking a six month break, it still is dying.

EVE isn't obsolete, it's experimenting with new technologies that CCP will either succeed at and turn EVE and their company into a major player in the gaming industry or will fail and other companies will get the technology right (EVE will still be around though).

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Lili Lu
#448 - 2013-02-08 18:31:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Ageck Kalenia wrote:
The numbers don't lie. The traditional PC is walking dead. It pains me to admit as much as anyone.

I spent $4,000 custom-building my last PC. But my next PC will cost perhaps half that money. It will run Linux, not Windows. And I will likely use it less than either my slate, my gesture-enabled television, or my cellphone. So will you, even if you don't believe me yet.


you're looking at $4000 of hardware. tablet can't provide this, and I have a feeling you overpaid http://imgur.com/a/Ii7Q1



OMG,if you turn that thing on,you are blind in a second!!!Shocked

All that money for the hardware and no love for the butt.What? Seriously,do you really sit on that cheap assed plastic bus station waiting room seat for hours going blind? Is that setup really just used for EVE Online or do you knead the hard plastic for the ease of cleanup with Eve online.P

Spend some money for your poor ass! Blink

kthxbye
ashley Eoner
#449 - 2013-02-08 22:30:01 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Well what will be interesting is how we overcome the rare earth element problem. Those fancy phones and tablets use a variety of rare earth elements that are currently being mined in China (mostly for the displays). Once the supply starts drying up the prices for the fancy gadgets that we currently throw away will skyrocket.

That's much more likely to happen before the tablet market becomes saturated like the conventional PC market is currently.
Corbin Blair
Doomheim
#450 - 2013-02-08 23:04:52 UTC
Ageck Kalenia wrote:
CCP recently indulged in a bit of self-congratulation following widespread media coverage of their 450,000th paid EVE subscription. Mainstream news outlets, including Forbes, actually remarked on the game’s success despite its venerability and outdated subscription model. EVE is proving unexpected staying power, growing steadily while other MMOs such as WoW have struggled to retain monthly customers.

All this attention might suggest the future of EVE is rosy and bright, but consider:

- The future of traditional x86 and x64 PC architecture is increasingly vague. Laptops have been outselling desktop systems for years, but tablet sales are gaining exponentially. A whopping 122 million ARM-based tablets and smartphones sold in 2012.

- Within two years, ARM devices will account for more than half of all personal computer sales.

- 97% of those devices will employ touch as their primary input. A full 50% will support gesture input and 10% will natively display stereoscopic 3D.

- The PC gaming industry has little appetite for Windows 8, as evidenced by leaders such as Valve Software. Valve is currently backing an aggressive transition to Steam for Linux, with a repository of 40 games and counting already available to open-source users. Valve is also throwing support behind Oculus Rift, a revolutionary developing virtual reality system.

All this points to something CCP isn't admitting: their flagship game title could soon become too damn inconvenient to play if it remains bound for all time to traditional PCs.

For the moment, EVE’s subscribers are loyal and (on the whole) pleased with the status quo. CCP just completed their 18th successful expansion, filling EVE with upgrades and goodies ranging from simplified combat functions to baffling trading cards. Players are heavily invested in EVE, emotionally, financially, and otherwise.

But ARM and other mobile technologies are maturing fast, with multi-core processors, dedicated GPUs, and beautiful multi-touch displays claiming long-established PC territory, both in performance and sales. As our PCs age, we will replace them with touch-based multipurpose tablets, hybrid smartphones, and lord-knows-what other concoctions of techno-wizardry. Those who do choose a traditional PC may find Windows taking a backseat to Ubuntu and other platforms. The fact that these devices refuse to run EVE-Online will not deter us from choosing the device suited to our increasingly busy and mobile lives.

What’s troubling is that, to date, CCP has offered almost no interest beyond traditional PCs. They pulled official support for Linux in 2009, citing low usage. Fanfest attendees went wild last spring when CCP purportedly demonstrated EVE being tested on Android. But nearly a full year later, with no updates, no announcements, and no beta, we’re no longer convinced. It’s become clear CCP will never support many of the bleeding-edge technologies we most covet – mobile computing, open source operating systems, stereoscopic 3D, touch and gesture input, and virtual reality.

I predict a tipping point, perhaps one to two years in the future, where EVE fans, torn between a device that suits their needs and a device that runs EVE, will inevitably cancel their subscriptions and embrace a new era of personal computing. CCP will trumpet new expansions, drop all the tweaks and player content their little hearts desire, and even lower subscription prices, but the damage will be done.

CCP has time to pull it together, but it’s understandably harder and less interesting than designing new battlecruisers or tweaking mining yields. Bringing internet spaceships to a new generation of devices demands a complete interface overhaul, perhaps even a full-scale client rewrite. But in EVE’s greatest challenge lies also its greatest opportunity. Mobile and open-source gaming platforms are bringing accessibility and exposure to untouched masses. If CCP can’t get excited about retaining existing gamers, maybe the prospect of millions of potential new subscribers will whet their appetite for the job at hand.

You think real games can be played on tablets, therefore you're not smart enough to have a valid opinion on anything, ever.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#451 - 2013-02-08 23:37:46 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Well what will be interesting is how we overcome the rare earth element problem. Those fancy phones and tablets use a variety of rare earth elements that are currently being mined in China (mostly for the displays). Once the supply starts drying up the prices for the fancy gadgets that we currently throw away will skyrocket.

That's much more likely to happen before the tablet market becomes saturated like the conventional PC market is currently.



'Rare Earth Metals'

pretty much every word in that name is wrong.

They're not rare. They're not earths, and they're generally not really metals.

Right now, China has a monopoly due to pricing. But they can be mined in many other places, if those places are willing to have the enviromental damage it'll cause. Or have pools of red mud from bauxite mining, like Jamacia.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Hrothgar Nilsson
#452 - 2013-02-08 23:45:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
ashley Eoner wrote:
Well what will be interesting is how we overcome the rare earth element problem. Those fancy phones and tablets use a variety of rare earth elements that are currently being mined in China (mostly for the displays). Once the supply starts drying up the prices for the fancy gadgets that we currently throw away will skyrocket.

That's much more likely to happen before the tablet market becomes saturated like the conventional PC market is currently.

Same way we historically overcome any commodity shortage/scarcity/etc.

For example in China, when there was a wood shortage in the 19th century, they started chopping their food into little bits so it'd cook faster.

Find ways to reduce the amount being used, find alternative materials... these type of innovations occur on an extremely regular basis.
ashley Eoner
#453 - 2013-02-09 04:59:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Steve Ronuken wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Well what will be interesting is how we overcome the rare earth element problem. Those fancy phones and tablets use a variety of rare earth elements that are currently being mined in China (mostly for the displays). Once the supply starts drying up the prices for the fancy gadgets that we currently throw away will skyrocket.

That's much more likely to happen before the tablet market becomes saturated like the conventional PC market is currently.



'Rare Earth Metals'

pretty much every word in that name is wrong.

They're not rare. They're not earths, and they're generally not really metals.

Right now, China has a monopoly due to pricing. But they can be mined in many other places, if those places are willing to have the enviromental damage it'll cause. Or have pools of red mud from bauxite mining, like Jamacia.
Somebody never took basic chemistry...

http://phys.org/news/2012-09-rare-earth-metals.html

Thanks for agreeing with my point though that prices will rise.


EDIT: Are you so confused that you thought I typed out Rare Earth Metal?

Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Well what will be interesting is how we overcome the rare earth element problem. Those fancy phones and tablets use a variety of rare earth elements that are currently being mined in China (mostly for the displays). Once the supply starts drying up the prices for the fancy gadgets that we currently throw away will skyrocket.

That's much more likely to happen before the tablet market becomes saturated like the conventional PC market is currently.

Same way we historically overcome any commodity shortage/scarcity/etc.

For example in China, when there was a wood shortage in the 19th century, they started chopping their food into little bits so it'd cook faster.

Find ways to reduce the amount being used, find alternative materials... these type of innovations occur on an extremely regular basis.


Duh? You made a poor choice of comparison as wood is an easy to harvest and renewable where as rare earth elements are generally widely dispersed and as a result difficult to mine for. That being said we will continue to adopt new technologies as replacements for some elements and more efficient uses of non replaceable elements.


Our biggest problem is that other countries are working on becoming first world countries so demand has been skyrocketing for some elements. While there is technically enough out there the energy required to harvest the elements will become the limiting factor.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#454 - 2013-02-23 12:36:08 UTC
Anybody else notice the Playstation 4 is coming equipped with an x86 processor?

I guess Sony didn't notice either. OP should shoot Sony an email about the grievous mistake they're about to make.
Jules Wynnfield
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#455 - 2013-02-23 12:48:25 UTC
Ageck Kalenia wrote:
The numbers don't lie. The traditional PC is walking dead. It pains me to admit as much as anyone.


This scenario has been pitched to us since the 1980's.

New material please.

♫ When I think about you, I touch myself ♫ - Divinyls 1991

Hrothgar Nilsson
#456 - 2013-02-23 13:14:07 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:

'Rare Earth Metals'

pretty much every word in that name is wrong.

They're not rare. They're not earths, and they're generally not really metals.

FYI, the term metals is used more broadly in chemistry than just those elements that can be smelted and forged.
Joran Dravius
Doomheim
#457 - 2013-02-23 15:56:52 UTC
Tablets don't have the power, the screen size or the control method to play anything more than Farmville. This thread is ridiculous and you should feel bad for making it.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#458 - 2013-02-23 16:18:49 UTC
Menian Galvon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#459 - 2013-02-23 18:28:46 UTC
Steam for Linux? Sorry but I am never going to switch to Linux to play a bunch of crappy indie games. I built a top-of-the-line computer to play real games. Desktops aren't going anywhere. I have a desktop, laptop, tablet, smartphone, smart tv, and full computer built into my car. None of those thing will replace any of the others. Well, except the car's computer. Maybe someday you just place your tablet into the dashboard and it becomes integrated into the car.

---{==================================== }----                             DCS: A-10C Warthog Pilot

ashley Eoner
#460 - 2013-03-02 04:45:52 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

'Rare Earth Metals'

pretty much every word in that name is wrong.

They're not rare. They're not earths, and they're generally not really metals.

FYI, the term metals is used more broadly in chemistry than just those elements that can be smelted and forged.
I didn't type what you're quoting me as saying and I know that metals have a broader classification in chemistry.

One of the early things you learn in basic general chemistry.