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Amarr/Minmatar drone issue - why hasn't this been fixed yet?
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-02-07 04:59:36 UTC
This issue has been brought up countless times in many forms, by people with varying levels of ability to understand the problem but all of them agreeing that it is very real. I have tried many times to explain the issue to people with alarmingly poor results, so I'm just going to post the raw figures here. If you have decent pattern recognition skills, the problem should be blindingly obvious to you. If you can't see it, please just find another topic to discuss.

The EVE forums apparently disallow indents, so it looks a lot better in a document. You can download a RTF version of it here: EVE - Drone Attributes
For best results, open it in Wordpad, not Microsoft Word.

Attributes posted below, for those of you who prefer not to download the document:

Race: Gallente Caldari Amarr Minmatar
Drone: Hobgoblin Hornet Acolyte Warrior

Basic EHP: 561 420 410 383
Sig Radius: 25m 25m 25m 25m

Max Velocity: 2800m/s 3200m/s 3800m/s 4200m/s
Orbit Velocity: 550m/s 600m/s 650m/s 750m/s

Base Damage: 15 thermal 15 kinetic 15 EM 15 explosive
Dmg Modifier: 1.6x 1.45x 1.15x 1.3x <---
Rate of Fire: 4.00s 4.00s 4.00s 4.00s
Tracking: 1.815 rad/sec 2.1 rad/sec 2.47 rad/sec 2.7 rad/sec


Race: Gallente Caldari Amarr Minmatar
Drone: Hammerhead Vespa Infiltrator Valkyrie

Basic EHP: 1121 840 820 766
Sig Radius: 50m 50m 50m 50m

Max Velocity: 1400m/s 1600m/s 1900m/s 2100m/s
Orbit Velocity: 400m/s 425m/s 450m/s 500m/s

Base Damage: 24 thermal 24 kinetic 24 EM 24 explosive
Dmg Modifier: 1.6x 1.45x 1.15x 1.3x <---
Rate of Fire: 4.00s 4.00s 4.00s 4.00s
Tracking: 0.72 rad/sec 0.816 rad/sec 1.08 rad/sec 1.08 rad/sec


Race: Gallente Caldari Amarr Minmatar
Drone: Ogre Wasp Praetor Berserker

Basic EHP: 2242 1680 1640 1532
Sig Radius: 100m 100m 100m 100m

Max Velocity: 700m/s 800m/s 950m/s 1050m/s
Orbit Velocity: 250m/s 275m/s 300m/s 350m/s

Base Damage: 48 thermal 48 kinetic 48 EM 48 explosive
Dmg Modifier: 1.6x 1.45x 1.15x 1.3x <---
Rate of Fire: 4.00s 4.00s 4.00s 4.00s
Tracking: 0.3 rad/sec 0.3575 rad/sec 0.42 rad/sec 0.4725 rad/sec

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sedstr
#2 - 2013-02-07 05:10:26 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
This issue has been brought up countless times in many forms, by people with varying levels of ability to understand the problem but all of them agreeing that it is very real. I have tried many times to explain the issue to people with alarmingly poor results, so I'm just going to post the raw figures here. If you have decent pattern recognition skills, the problem should be blindingly obvious to you. If you can't see it, please just find another topic to discuss.

The EVE forums apparently disallow indents, so it looks a lot better in a document. You can download a RTF version of it here: EVE - Drone Attributes
For best results, open it in Wordpad, not Microsoft Word.

Attributes posted below, for those of you who prefer not to download the document:

Race: Gallente Caldari Amarr Minmatar
Drone: Hobgoblin Hornet Acolyte Warrior

Basic EHP: 561 420 410 383
Sig Radius: 25m 25m 25m 25m

Max Velocity: 2800m/s 3200m/s 3800m/s 4200m/s
Orbit Velocity: 550m/s 600m/s 650m/s 750m/s

Base Damage: 15 thermal 15 kinetic 15 EM 15 explosive
Dmg Modifier: 1.6x 1.45x 1.15x 1.3x <---
Rate of Fire: 4.00s 4.00s 4.00s 4.00s
Tracking: 1.815 rad/sec 2.1 rad/sec 2.47 rad/sec 2.7 rad/sec


Race: Gallente Caldari Amarr Minmatar
Drone: Hammerhead Vespa Infiltrator Valkyrie

Basic EHP: 1121 840 820 766
Sig Radius: 50m 50m 50m 50m

Max Velocity: 1400m/s 1600m/s 1900m/s 2100m/s
Orbit Velocity: 400m/s 425m/s 450m/s 500m/s

Base Damage: 24 thermal 24 kinetic 24 EM 24 explosive
Dmg Modifier: 1.6x 1.45x 1.15x 1.3x <---
Rate of Fire: 4.00s 4.00s 4.00s 4.00s
Tracking: 0.72 rad/sec 0.816 rad/sec 1.08 rad/sec 1.08 rad/sec


Race: Gallente Caldari Amarr Minmatar
Drone: Ogre Wasp Praetor Berserker

Basic EHP: 2242 1680 1640 1532
Sig Radius: 100m 100m 100m 100m

Max Velocity: 700m/s 800m/s 950m/s 1050m/s
Orbit Velocity: 250m/s 275m/s 300m/s 350m/s

Base Damage: 48 thermal 48 kinetic 48 EM 48 explosive
Dmg Modifier: 1.6x 1.45x 1.15x 1.3x <---
Rate of Fire: 4.00s 4.00s 4.00s 4.00s
Tracking: 0.3 rad/sec 0.3575 rad/sec 0.42 rad/sec 0.4725 rad/sec


It looks to me, based on this data, that Amarr drones are the worse off and mini look like the have an unbalanced advantage.

...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-02-07 05:13:16 UTC
Sedstr wrote:
It looks to me, based on this data, that Amarr drones are the worse off and mini look like the have an unbalanced advantage.
That's exactly what it is.

P.S.: all drone attributes I did not include are exactly identical among all drones of the same size.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sedstr
#4 - 2013-02-07 05:17:08 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Sedstr wrote:
It looks to me, based on this data, that Amarr drones are the worse off and mini look like the have an unbalanced advantage.
That's exactly what it is.

P.S.: all drone attributes I did not include are exactly identical among all drones of the same size.



Could it be because, generally, explosive resists are most commonly high on most ships? (I haven't investigated - just trying to think of a logical reason why CCP would have changed the damage multiplier)

...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-02-07 05:26:18 UTC
The armor resists are a reverse of the shield resists, so an armor hit point is about as valuable as a shield hit point. And all of the drones of all sizes have identical resists.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sedstr
#6 - 2013-02-07 05:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sedstr
just took a quick look at battlecruisers to check if my hypothesis was valid...

totals of % resists - just adding like shield explosive resists % + explosive armor resists %... crude I know...

harbi:
....EM = 50%
....EXP = 70%
....KIN = 65%
....TH = 55%

drake:
....EM = 50%
....EXP = 60%
....KIN = 65%
....TH = 65%

myrm:
....EM = 50%
....EXP = 60%
....KIN = 75%
....TH = 55%

cane:
....EM = 60%
....EXP = 60%
....KIN = 65%
....TH = 55%


EM = 50 50 50 60 = 210
EXP = 70 60 60 60 = 250
KIN = 65 65 75 65 = 270
TH = 55 65 55 55 = 230

so in order of general resistences across the 4 BC in order of highest to lowest...

KIN, EXP, TH, EM

therefore it would make sense, to balance out the drones defensive stats to make them even, but to make their offensive stats more compatible with the targets they are shooting generally...

based on these generalities, I guess CCP chose to buff mini drones, else they would have stayed at the bottom of the damage dealing pile, yet their targets have a higher "generally" resist to EXP.... IYKWIM.


I would also hesitate to guess that these values were set even before capitals came into the game, and all the other ships that have arrived since... I think drones are one of those 'too hard basket' products in eve...

...
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-02-07 07:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ris Dnalor
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Sedstr wrote:
It looks to me, based on this data, that Amarr drones are the worse off and mini look like the have an unbalanced advantage.
That's exactly what it is.

P.S.: all drone attributes I did not include are exactly identical among all drones of the same size.



except for mass


3000kg, 3500kg, 3000kg, 4000kg respectively, , but not sure if mass is relevant.


also didn't give breakdowns of hull, armor, shield, though the amounts are so small, not sure that matters much either.

overall I agree, and have wondered about this for a very long time. The sarcastic answer always was that lasers take more juice, and can't fit enough batteries in the drone to get a proper laser drone.

Personally I'm still waiting on missile-chucking caldari drones.... imagine 5 hornets each spewing defender missiles *grin*

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Naomi Anthar
#8 - 2013-02-07 07:14:42 UTC
Sedstr wrote:
just took a quick look at battlecruisers to check if my hypothesis was valid...

totals of % resists - just adding like shield explosive resists % + explosive armor resists %... crude I know...

harbi:
....EM = 50%
....EXP = 70%
....KIN = 65%
....TH = 55%

drake:
....EM = 50%
....EXP = 60%
....KIN = 65%
....TH = 65%

myrm:
....EM = 50%
....EXP = 60%
....KIN = 75%
....TH = 55%

cane:
....EM = 60%
....EXP = 60%
....KIN = 65%
....TH = 55%


EM = 50 50 50 60 = 210
EXP = 70 60 60 60 = 250
KIN = 65 65 75 65 = 270
TH = 55 65 55 55 = 230

so in order of general resistences across the 4 BC in order of highest to lowest...

KIN, EXP, TH, EM

therefore it would make sense, to balance out the drones defensive stats to make them even, but to make their offensive stats more compatible with the targets they are shooting generally...

based on these generalities, I guess CCP chose to buff mini drones, else they would have stayed at the bottom of the damage dealing pile, yet their targets have a higher "generally" resist to EXP.... IYKWIM.


I would also hesitate to guess that these values were set even before capitals came into the game, and all the other ships that have arrived since... I think drones are one of those 'too hard basket' products in eve...


You would speak truth ... if all those ships would dual tank. But noone of them DO . In fact you spread this bullshit all around.
Amarr drones are gimped for NO REASON. You just got no balls and/or inteligence to admit that. Hell even CCP said they gonna look into Amarr drones , becasue they know how much sucky they are.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#9 - 2013-02-07 07:18:10 UTC
Yes, it's clear that all drones have massively overblown signature radiuses.

.
Sedstr
#10 - 2013-02-07 07:18:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sedstr
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Sedstr wrote:
just took a quick look at battlecruisers to check if my hypothesis was valid...

totals of % resists - just adding like shield explosive resists % + explosive armor resists %... crude I know...

harbi:
....EM = 50%
....EXP = 70%
....KIN = 65%
....TH = 55%

drake:
....EM = 50%
....EXP = 60%
....KIN = 65%
....TH = 65%

myrm:
....EM = 50%
....EXP = 60%
....KIN = 75%
....TH = 55%

cane:
....EM = 60%
....EXP = 60%
....KIN = 65%
....TH = 55%


EM = 50 50 50 60 = 210
EXP = 70 60 60 60 = 250
KIN = 65 65 75 65 = 270
TH = 55 65 55 55 = 230

so in order of general resistences across the 4 BC in order of highest to lowest...

KIN, EXP, TH, EM

therefore it would make sense, to balance out the drones defensive stats to make them even, but to make their offensive stats more compatible with the targets they are shooting generally...

based on these generalities, I guess CCP chose to buff mini drones, else they would have stayed at the bottom of the damage dealing pile, yet their targets have a higher "generally" resist to EXP.... IYKWIM.


I would also hesitate to guess that these values were set even before capitals came into the game, and all the other ships that have arrived since... I think drones are one of those 'too hard basket' products in eve...


You would speak truth ... if all those ships would dual tank. But noone of them DO . In fact you spread this bullshit all around.
Amarr drones are gimped for NO REASON. You just got no balls and/or inteligence to admit that. Hell even CCP said they gonna look into Amarr drones , becasue they know how much sucky they are.



wow, you is crazy, and you don't understand the words 'generally' and 'crude'...
I posed a reason why CCP would have changed the mini drone, and I provided some details... suggesting that CCP made the decision in just such a generalized fashion. I also suggested that these values may have been set a long time ago, and they are too hard for CCP to fix.

I made no comment at all on my personal opinion of if they are OP or nerf'd, only why the mini drone would have been buffed the way it obviously was.

My personal opinion is that the damages should all be equal, and the other aspects of the drone's defenses balanced out to make that so, not some arbitrary tweaking of the mini drones post working out the original settings just didn't work out 'generally'. They need to be looked at.

...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-02-07 09:30:20 UTC
In terms of general usefulness, thermal is the best damage type, followed by kinetic, explosive, and finally EM. As a general rule, Thermal and kinetic are slightly better than EM and explosive. But these differences are by and large insignificant. Lasers are still a popular weapon, hounds and purifiers get flown more than nemeses or manticores, Avatars are the most popular Titan, nobody bothers to bring non-kinetic missiles in their Drakes, and I've been told to use EMP ammo with projectile weapons. All in all it's more laziness or external factors, but ignoring the damage differences mostly only hurts when you're running missions by yourself.

I can find no reason CCP would have set the damage modifiers higher on minmatar and lower on amarr. The most obvious answer is that it is an oversight, and I am nearly 100% convinced that is exactly what happened: someone typed it in wrong and nobody noticed at first. Which is why I'm confused that it has gone unfixed after so long. It is so simple a change that it would take all of 5 minutes to add the code to a patch, and zero testing because it is already well established that minmatar drones are overpowered and amarr drones are underpowered; when noting the pattern discrepancy, one can realize it is not possible for smoothing the pattern to throw the system further out of whack than it already is.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-02-07 09:36:48 UTC
Sedstr wrote:
My personal opinion is that the damages should all be equal, and the other aspects of the drone's defenses balanced out to make that so,
There's no need to reduce the diversity between the races' drones when the system already works as-is. People will always gravitate toward the top damage (gallente) or fastest (minmatar) because people have one-track minds. Caldari drones are already fully viable and I use them fairly often. Once Amarr drones get fixed, I will likely use those too. I have often thought about using them, but every time I either decide that Gallente drones hit well enough or that caldari drones will actually do more damage even if I'm using them against Sansha targets.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sedstr
#13 - 2013-02-07 09:38:58 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
In terms of general usefulness, thermal is the best damage type, followed by kinetic, explosive, and finally EM. As a general rule, Thermal and kinetic are slightly better than EM and explosive. But these differences are by and large insignificant. Lasers are still a popular weapon, hounds and purifiers get flown more than nemeses or manticores, Avatars are the most popular Titan, nobody bothers to bring non-kinetic missiles in their Drakes, and I've been told to use EMP ammo with projectile weapons. All in all it's more laziness or external factors, but ignoring the damage differences mostly only hurts when you're running missions by yourself.

I can find no reason CCP would have set the damage modifiers higher on minmatar and lower on amarr. The most obvious answer is that it is an oversight, and I am nearly 100% convinced that is exactly what happened: someone typed it in wrong and nobody noticed at first. Which is why I'm confused that it has gone unfixed after so long. It is so simple a change that it would take all of 5 minutes to add the code to a patch, and zero testing because it is already well established that minmatar drones are overpowered and amarr drones are underpowered; when noting the pattern discrepancy, one can realize it is not possible for smoothing the pattern to throw the system further out of whack than it already is.



as you pointed out...

Dmg Modifier: 1.6x 1.45x 1.15x 1.3x <---

based on the other stats, I would have thought that that would have gone something like

1.6x 1.45x 1.15x 1.05x

But that just didn't work for CCP, when release, so they buffed the mini drone getting rid of most of the complaints and figuring they'd get back to it another time...

...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-02-07 09:44:08 UTC
Sedstr wrote:
as you pointed out...

Dmg Modifier: 1.6x 1.45x 1.15x 1.3x <---

based on the other stats, I would have thought that that would have gone something like

1.6x 1.45x 1.15x 1.05x
I think the obvious fix would be to set it as:
Dmg Modifier: 1.6x 1.45x 1.3x 1.15x

Amarr drones might not be popular with a buff that small but I can stop passing them up when I want EM damage or the Gallente drone tracking is a bit low.

Minmatar drones won't hurt too much with such a small decrease in damage.

And lastly, could you please stop quoting entire threadnoughts? Erasing excess text is kind to the reader!

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Johann Rascali
The Milkmen
Sedition.
#15 - 2013-02-07 10:07:41 UTC
I always thought the oversight was in rate of fire. It looks to me like the drones were built to match their racial weapons (blasters, railguns, pulse lasers, and autocannons) as used to be evident in the visual looks of their shots (thanks for replacing that with a generic blue pewlaser, CCP) and is clearly seen in the sentry drones. But, then they were all given the same rate of fire, possibly out of not being able to decide whether to model off of pulses/beams or ACs/arty, then forgetting that they were going to look into that eventually.

Blanking signatures doesn't seem to work, so this is here.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-02-07 10:21:27 UTC
Yeah, they might have had a reason for the damage modifiers with a different rate of fire layout, and then forgot to normalize the damage when they normalized the rate of fire.

Sentry drones have more uniqueness due to varying optimal and falloff ranges, and not all being in a straight lineup. But I can say that the Warden (Caldari) is easily outperformed by the Bouncer (Minmatar). They both have the same tracking (0.01), approximately the same range (Warden=50+25 and Bouncer=40+35), but the damage modifiers are very different: 1.2x for Warden and 1.4x for Bouncer. Same rate of fire.

Curator (Amarr) has less range than Warden but not way less (35+20), it has a higher damage modifier despite having DOUBLE the tracking: .02 tracking and 1.3x damage.

I think this makes the Warden clearly underpowered and the Bouncer possibly overpowered. The Garde (Gallente) is more unique because it has much better damage and WAY better tracking (0.04), but its range is way less (20+10), so it needs every bit of that tracking. In the past, I have pondered using Gardes but never actually done it because I always end up siding with Ogres when dealing with small ranges. So not overpowered, but I wouldn't say underpowered either. I think they have a use.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#17 - 2013-02-07 11:01:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
Amarr drones are pretty borked.

RoF could help with the balancing, as could optimal and falloff changes. Applied dps over paper dps, just like lasers and projectiles...

Not sure how to approach tanking differences, although the Sig radii seem a bit off. a small drone, taking up 5m3 having a Sig radius of 25m seems a bit excessive. Not to mention heavy drones having cruiser Sig radii.

It would also be awesome if Caldari drones had their current weapons visual effect replaced with missiles, except wardens who can keep the rails. But that's just me.

I have suggested a simple modular drone chasis, allowing for a 'script' to be placed in either an attack or combat hull that would allow all types of damage, ewar and utility to be available where needed. The link is in my Sig.

Friends
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-02-07 11:06:19 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Not sure how to approach tanking differences, although the Sig radii seem a bit off. a small drone, taking up 5m3 having a Sig radius of 25m seems a bit excessive.
At 25m, with the high speed and agility of these drones, they are difficult to hit even with frigate weapons. From a game balance perspective, it fits. I think the explanation of the size difference between sig radius and cargo volume might be summed up with them being folded up in cargo, and popping out to full length/width for flight.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Kogh Ayon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-02-07 11:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kogh Ayon
Just swap the tracking speed with minmatar drones, then it will work.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-02-07 12:15:05 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Not sure how to approach tanking differences, although the Sig radii seem a bit off. a small drone, taking up 5m3 having a Sig radius of 25m seems a bit excessive.
At 25m, with the high speed and agility of these drones, they are difficult to hit even with frigate weapons. From a game balance perspective, it fits. I think the explanation of the size difference between sig radius and cargo volume might be summed up with them being folded up in cargo, and popping out to full length/width for flight.



Wasn't there something about sig radius being the electronic footprint of the ship? Meaning a drone would appear much larger than it is on paper, because it's remotely controlled, whereas an advanced "stealth" ship such as T3 would appear smaller than it actually is (for instance, Tengu has a sig radius of 150 in pve mode, whereas it's supposed to be more than 2x as big (348m long)).
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