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Jump Freighters are overpowered

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#181 - 2011-10-25 22:59:05 UTC
steave435 wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
steave435 wrote:
It is indeed the same "work" pretty much, but with the difference that getting the huge work decrease from using the JFs require supporting them with other ships, making it a group activity. Anything is much more fun when you do it together with a good group of people rather then solo.


see earlier megapost about why "ooh! more space work!" is a stupendously bad idea for 0.0

i hope we've also abandoned "you need a support fleet for supercaps, ergo you must need a support fleet for jump freighters!" argument since we all learned that supercaps are a whole different ship class, not merely "good capitals" argument and therefore jump freighters are not supercaps

Nope, that's just your (wrong) opinion.
Since you keep ignoring the points of "this will be a group activity rather then work" and "if you don't agree with that, you can help the game by recruiting miners and manufacturers", I'll consider you a troll from now on though.

shut up maggot

'your arguments are too hard for me, you must be a troll'

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#182 - 2011-10-25 23:02:20 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
I've read it, and you haven't really answered it. You've said that EVE is designed in a way that requires vast quantities of materials to be shipped out to nullsec. But you're only half right - EVE is designed in a way that encourages vast amounts of materials to be shipped out to nullsec. A very large part of that encouragement is the ease with which JF logistics work.


No it's not. I used the word "required" and I meant it. Trit must be imported, in massive quantaties. Fuel must be imported, in massive quantities (fuel is regional: you cannot "mine your own"). Moon minerals must be either exported or imported, in massive quantities (moon minerals are regional). All of these have existed for some time well before jump freighters existed. 0.0 is fundamentally designed to require a massive logistical pipeline to empire. We've wanted that to be severed for some time: allow ways to mine lots of trit in 0.0 for example. But without those, a massive influx of material from empire is a requirement, not an option.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#183 - 2011-10-25 23:03:21 UTC
and, of course, there's the annoyance that there are no refinery/factories in 0.0 which makes it a huge pain even if you do import raw minerals

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#184 - 2011-10-25 23:04:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Preventing JFs from using stargates will both encourage players to develop industry in nullsec, and to work together more to get their essential shipments moved safely. Both of those outcomes are positive changes to gameplay. It really isn't hard to grasp.


Prevent JF's from using stargates means they will only jump? Roll

Also: import tritanium and other minerals when 0.0 belts are full of roids and no miners in them, it's the dumbest argument you can read coming from some high sec miners ganker. Pathetic.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#185 - 2011-10-25 23:07:42 UTC
in essence, the idea of "nerf jump freighters and 0.0 industry will blossom" is ********

nerf jump freighters and 0.0 will wither and stagnate

if you want 0.0 industry you must work on fixing the structural issues that prevent it from being a thing, not the only thing that enables 0.0 to survive despite the structural issues

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#186 - 2011-10-25 23:08:14 UTC
So how do you explain the frequent use of JFs to move things like new T1 ship hulls, or PI-produced POS fuel?
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#187 - 2011-10-25 23:13:36 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Prevent JF's from using stargates means they will only jump? Roll


It means they can't enter highsec. If they can't enter highsec, then other ships have to get the materials to lowsec (via stargates, instead of just jumping from highsec in total safety), requiring scouts and escorts, and most importantly, cooperation.

Weaselior wrote:
if you want 0.0 industry you must work on fixing the structural issues that prevent it from being a thing, not the only thing that enables 0.0 to survive despite the structural issues


On this, I agree - there's more to it than just the ease of JF logistics. But even if all those other things were fixed, JFs would still need to be nerfed, because reliance on them is just too easy.
thrulinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2011-10-25 23:22:33 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
So how do you explain the frequent use of JFs to move things like new T1 ship hulls, or PI-produced POS fuel?


Simple, many like my self don't go into low-sec space very often. If at all. Everything I need to make the ships is in high sec-space.
Not that it matter's where it is made. The point is something needs to move it. regardless of how, or what you use. T1 freighter's,
Or T2 jump ships, carriers and or titans., of the few other ships that can.
Now someone in CCP decided that a jump freighter was needed. It really dose not matter if it from high-sec to to low-sec or low-sec to low-sec, 0.0 space. Now since most of what is needed is in high-sec. they made it so it can go to high-sec. It follows every game mechanic the other jump capable ships follow. They changed the T1 freighter enough, but not enough to make a ship design.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#189 - 2011-10-25 23:30:24 UTC
thrulinn wrote:
It follows every game mechanic the other jump capable ships follow


Except it can use stargates and enter highsec. Show me another jump-capable capital ship that can do that?
thrulinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2011-10-25 23:36:33 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
thrulinn wrote:
It follows every game mechanic the other jump capable ships follow


Except it can use stargates and enter highsec. Show me another jump-capable capital ship that can do that?



Like I said some developer decided that this game need's a ship that can, and nothing is going to change that.
It will all ways be able to do so. Maybe a MOD here has been reading the thread, maybe not, but they are not relaying this to the developers to change what dose not need changing.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#191 - 2011-10-25 23:42:53 UTC
Then we'll see posts because some people will use BO's cargo fitted/rigged to safely transport stuff from/to high/null, sure small amounts but still.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#192 - 2011-10-25 23:45:20 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
if you want 0.0 industry you must work on fixing the structural issues that prevent it from being a thing, not the only thing that enables 0.0 to survive despite the structural issues


On this, I agree - there's more to it than just the ease of JF logistics. But even if all those other things were fixed, JFs would still need to be nerfed, because reliance on them is just too easy.


Essentially, if the pipeline of required import/export for 0.0 to function was fixed so 0.0 industry was viable, I'd be completely fine with nerfing the JF. I'm saying you can't nerf it until you do: 0.0 industry isn't **** because of the JF, the JF is a patch on EVE to fix the fact 0.0 simply doesn't function.

CCP likes the model of 0.0 and empire being co-dependent: as long as they want that model you can't cut the JF. You need to sever or weaken that tie first, then nerf the JF.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#193 - 2011-10-25 23:49:49 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
So how do you explain the frequent use of JFs to move things like new T1 ship hulls, or PI-produced POS fuel?


1)Because you can't even have a refinery and produciton outpost in the same system. POS production sucks because you need an office to use a bpo, and 0.0 outposts are really light on office slots. This makes 0.0 battleship production an unfun nightmare of many round-trip freighter runs. Doing them cross-system is enough to make you want to murder youself or a CCP employee.

2)Because PI sucks and nobody wants to do it. It's another unfun game mechanic, so we'd rather do more fun ones and spend money on getting PI products than make it ourselves.

Seperate flaws with eve, essentially.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#194 - 2011-10-25 23:51:00 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
thrulinn wrote:
It follows every game mechanic the other jump capable ships follow


Except it can use stargates and enter highsec. Show me another jump-capable capital ship that can do that?

black ops battleship

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2011-10-26 00:04:52 UTC
This thread needs to DIAF

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#196 - 2011-10-26 05:13:09 UTC
Lots of good discourse since I've been here last.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#197 - 2011-10-26 07:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Weaselior wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
thrulinn wrote:
It follows every game mechanic the other jump capable ships follow


Except it can use stargates and enter highsec. Show me another jump-capable capital ship that can do that?

black ops battleship


Capital ship, fool: Learn to readRoll

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#198 - 2011-10-26 13:00:52 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
Lots of good discourse since I've been here last.

get back in your hole

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#199 - 2011-10-26 13:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
thrulinn wrote:
It follows every game mechanic the other jump capable ships follow


Except it can use stargates and enter highsec. Show me another jump-capable capital ship that can do that?

black ops battleship


Capital ship, fool: Learn to readRoll

like the freighter, the battleship can enter highsec and use gates; so too can both of their t2 jump-capable versions

it is deadalus who incorrectly assumed only capital-class ships could hold a jump drive

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#200 - 2011-10-26 14:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Er, no. I said 'jump-capable capital ship' because that is exactly what I meant. The JF is alone as a jump-capable capital ship in its ability to use gates and enter highsec.

You're not seriously suggesting that Black Ops are in any way comparable to JFs (or any other capital) besides their jump drive, are you? It's not like BO BS can be used for logistics (besides bridging blockade runners around, which is neither here nor there).