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What to do with DUST? One month in already way bigger than EvE

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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2013-02-06 10:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
It's anti-EVE and anti-skill. In EVE you can't just take your bomber fleet and bomb the hell out of your tackle knowing the enemy will die and your allies won't. It adds balance, dimension and skill to using a bomber fleet knowing you could actually kill your own fleet instantly if bombing carelessly. Contrast that with the DUST closed beta (which I played) where the people dominating the killboard were using milita aircraft with infinite AoE rockets to bombard the battlefield with little regard if their rockets landed right on their teammates' heads as long as the enemy was within proximity of the blast. Friendly fire is the diffence between tactical decisions being made and "spray and praying" wildly into a crowd of your teammates hoping to rack up kill points.

This. I feel that I'm not EVE type enough, but shooting your teammates for the hell of it aka random awox (or due to being an infiltrator or whatnot) isn't what I first think of when presented to no friendly fire rule, instead I think of indiscriminate use of AoE stuff which is quite potent in FPS oftentimes unless balanced by friendly fire potential (other factors and certain circumstances that can influence that aside).

From my own experience with multiplayer FPS, someone playing FFA in a team match is something that happens once on a blue moon. But being killed by a teammate who fling grenades or full autos around despite enemies coming into melee with allies is something I had to face quite often.

Of course this observation is based on games that have no bigger picture past a single game, but I don't see infiltrators "awoxing" people during important battle to be a problem more than similar type in EVE. This can happen, but infiltrated toons are usually too valuable to be used like that and I don't see people RQ'ing over abundand usage of that technique.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Optimo Sebiestor
The New Eden School of trade
Organization of Skill Extracting Corporations
#62 - 2013-02-06 11:19:34 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Not to be a naysayer, but ask yourself one question:

DUST, or Call of Duty?



Let's see, one is free and the other isn't.. I think I know the answer to this one..Lol
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2013-02-06 14:13:21 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Not to be a naysayer, but ask yourself one question:

DUST, or Call of Duty?

Cod, but only because of the control.


I think this is something CCP really needs to get on the ball with. Cod and halo are good because of the fluidity of the controls.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-02-06 14:37:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Aren Madigan
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
It's anti-EVE and anti-skill. In EVE you can't just take your bomber fleet and bomb the hell out of your tackle knowing the enemy will die and your allies won't. It adds balance, dimension and skill to using a bomber fleet knowing you could actually kill your own fleet instantly if bombing carelessly. Contrast that with the DUST closed beta (which I played) where the people dominating the killboard were using milita aircraft with infinite AoE rockets to bombard the battlefield with little regard if their rockets landed right on their teammates' heads as long as the enemy was within proximity of the blast. Friendly fire is the diffence between tactical decisions being made and "spray and praying" wildly into a crowd of your teammates hoping to rack up kill points.

This. I feel that I'm not EVE type enough, but shooting your teammates for the hell of it aka random awox (or due to being an infiltrator or whatnot) isn't what I first think of when presented to no friendly fire rule, instead I think of indiscriminate use of AoE stuff which is quite potent in FPS oftentimes unless balanced by friendly fire potential (other factors and certain circumstances that can influence that aside).

From my own experience with multiplayer FPS, someone playing FFA in a team match is something that happens once on a blue moon. But being killed by a teammate who fling grenades or full autos around despite enemies coming into melee with allies is something I had to face quite often.

Of course this observation is based on games that have no bigger picture past a single game, but I don't see infiltrators "awoxing" people during important battle to be a problem more than similar type in EVE. This can happen, but infiltrated toons are usually too valuable to be used like that and I don't see people RQ'ing over abundand usage of that technique.


There are however differing mindsets in an FPS vs a game like EVE... people LOVE shooting their own guys in FPSs. Quite often because there's no significant penalty to doing so. A game like EVE is more easily able to present consequences to such actions that don't destroy one's ability to play the game effectively entirely. Planetside 2 is a good example of a game that's just flooded with friendly fire issues. Ones that'd be worse if rendering worked/hit detection wasn't linked to rendering. At least its an issue for random players together... if its mostly for corp matches and such, its a bit more sensible.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#65 - 2013-02-06 15:32:14 UTC
Brooms ftw

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#66 - 2013-02-06 15:35:35 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Verfanny wrote:
So, I haven't read much into DUST despite trying it a little in the CB but can you call an Orbital Bombardment on your positions? I mean, if a Dust player is also an EVE player providing support from his nearby computer, can he grief his own team? If so, I predict a lot of rage over that.

Actually... yah that's possible. They're introducing friendly fire soon for corp matches and contracts mercenary work. There will be rage but that's going to be an allowed form of griefing... like a saboteur or corp thief is in eve. Will be interesting.


I dunno, one guy team killing in a match doesn't seem quite as effective as offlining sov, stealing billions in ships and popping the CEO's pimped out marauder.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#67 - 2013-02-06 18:29:55 UTC
Chribba wrote:
Brooms ftw

Are you officially calling shenanigans?

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#68 - 2013-02-06 19:41:43 UTC
Nope, I like the game, playing it quite much despite my limited skills haha

/c

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2013-02-06 19:50:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Aren Madigan wrote:
There are however differing mindsets in an FPS vs a game like EVE... people LOVE shooting their own guys in FPSs. Quite often because there's no significant penalty to doing so. A game like EVE is more easily able to present consequences to such actions that don't destroy one's ability to play the game effectively entirely.
Not really thanks to wardec evasion. The only real consequence is that of reputation as a traitor, which applies to both games.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2013-02-06 19:57:04 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Not to be a naysayer, but ask yourself one question:

DUST, or Call of Duty?

Cod, but only because of the control.


I think this is something CCP really needs to get on the ball with. Cod and halo are good because of the fluidity of the controls.

The problem is thanks to the SP system new people getting into the game are playing the slowest and least fluid characters DUST can offer.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-02-06 19:57:48 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
There are however differing mindsets in an FPS vs a game like EVE... people LOVE shooting their own guys in FPSs. Quite often because there's no significant penalty to doing so. A game like EVE is more easily able to present consequences to such actions that don't destroy one's ability to play the game effectively entirely.
Not really thanks to wardec evasion. The only real consequence is that of reputation as a traitor, which applies to both games.


Just because you can't drive someone out of the game in response to their actions doesn't mean that there aren't other consequences that can be presented. At this point you're just trying to bring a discussion from another topic into this one.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2013-02-06 20:22:42 UTC
"non-consensual PVP" = 'drive them out of the game'
Kelduum has raised you well
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#73 - 2013-02-06 20:39:23 UTC
Gogela wrote:
1.182 million DUST accounts already...

There has to be a way to make ISK off of them... wouldn't you think? Pirate


You do realize, that free is the reason so many people signed up right?

Call us in six months, and then find out how many "Active" accounts there are....


Big smile


Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Generals4
#74 - 2013-02-06 20:41:25 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Not to be a naysayer, but ask yourself one question:

DUST, or Call of Duty?


Depends. If it has to be on PS3 it would be DUST, if i can take CoD on PC i'd go for CoD because i'm no big fan of FPS's on consoles.

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2013-02-06 21:12:52 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
"non-consensual PVP" = 'drive them out of the game'
Kelduum has raised you well


You want to have this discussion? Don't bring it to other topics. But yes, to the extent you want to bring it, being able to attack whoever you want without consequence, that falls under that particular extreme. Encouraging changing a system in a way that only encourages griefing individuals is exactly that. Its a system that needs adjustments, not a sledge hammer.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#76 - 2013-02-06 21:52:20 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
"non-consensual PVP" = 'drive them out of the game'
Kelduum has raised you well


You want to have this discussion? Don't bring it to other topics. But yes, to the extent you want to bring it, being able to attack whoever you want without consequence, that falls under that particular extreme. Encouraging changing a system in a way that only encourages griefing individuals is exactly that. Its a system that needs adjustments, not a sledge hammer.

Damn guys... let me put this on ice right now. Public matches where people are just thrown into a game or lobby together randomly will have friendly fire turned off. That's how it should be. I actually wouldn't mind if friendly fire was on in a public game, just as long as you had the option of booting someone from the match who was teamkilling you. That's how it is in every other FPS game and there's a good damn reason for it. As it is, turning friendly fire off for pub matches is fine.

Corp battles and merc contracts will have friendly fire turned on... so yah... make sure you know who your friends are. That's also fine because yah, it's still New Eden and s*** still happens.

We've been talking about this at length in the DUST forums and I'm pretty sure most people are on the same page. There's no mining in an FPS game... the only carebears there are refugees from high sec mining corps in eve... trust me DUST is going to be plenty bloody.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#77 - 2013-02-06 21:55:11 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Gogela wrote:
1.182 million DUST accounts already...

There has to be a way to make ISK off of them... wouldn't you think? Pirate


You do realize, that free is the reason so many people signed up right?

Call us in six months, and then find out how many "Active" accounts there are....


Big smile




If I remember correctly DUST will still be free in six months... likely in even better shape game play wise than it is now, and probably with a major expansion scheduled in its near future. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#78 - 2013-02-06 21:57:42 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
"non-consensual PVP" = 'drive them out of the game'
Kelduum has raised you well


You want to have this discussion? Don't bring it to other topics. But yes, to the extent you want to bring it, being able to attack whoever you want without consequence, that falls under that particular extreme. Encouraging changing a system in a way that only encourages griefing individuals is exactly that. Its a system that needs adjustments, not a sledge hammer.

Damn guys... let me put this on ice right now. Public matches where people are just thrown into a game or lobby together randomly will have friendly fire turned off. That's how it should be. I actually wouldn't mind if friendly fire was on in a public game, just as long as you had the option of booting someone from the match who was teamkilling you. That's how it is in every other FPS game and there's a good damn reason for it. As it is, turning friendly fire off for pub matches is fine.

Corp battles and merc contracts will have friendly fire turned on... so yah... make sure you know who your friends are. That's also fine because yah, it's still New Eden and s*** still happens.

We've been talking about this at length in the DUST forums and I'm pretty sure most people are on the same page. There's no mining in an FPS game... the only carebears there are refugees from high sec mining corps in eve... trust me DUST is going to be plenty bloody.

Yep, yep.

However I will say considering the non-permanent nature of the equipment you need to continually buy I would say industry in some form or another is fairly inevitable.

Lets face it, it takes all types.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#79 - 2013-02-06 22:03:41 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Yep, yep.

However I will say considering the non-permanent nature of the equipment you need to continually buy I would say industry in some form or another is fairly inevitable.

Lets face it, it takes all types.

I don't know... I would bet not. If DUST mercs can "make" their gear, that crafting system won't look ANYTHING like eve's. Maybe when you control districts you have weapons manufacturers building certain things in them.... but it better be hands off. Own district: collect tank turrets (& bacon). FPS gamers are like EvE PvPers if they had shorter attention spans and no alts. You're not going to get a robust and complex industry going... it would be a big turn off. I'm sure they'll outsource most of it to EvE... at least the hard parts. imho anyway...

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#80 - 2013-02-06 22:53:45 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Yep, yep.

However I will say considering the non-permanent nature of the equipment you need to continually buy I would say industry in some form or another is fairly inevitable.

Lets face it, it takes all types.

I don't know... I would bet not. If DUST mercs can "make" their gear, that crafting system won't look ANYTHING like eve's. Maybe when you control districts you have weapons manufacturers building certain things in them.... but it better be hands off. Own district: collect tank turrets (& bacon). FPS gamers are like EvE PvPers if they had shorter attention spans and no alts. You're not going to get a robust and complex industry going... it would be a big turn off. I'm sure they'll outsource most of it to EvE... at least the hard parts. imho anyway...

It is entirely possible that is what they will do, and it would prove an excellent dynamic between the games... but I try to keep in mind two things.

1: Just because an option is made available in a game doesn't mean the majority of players have to use it to justify it, nor will its presence prove detrimental to the rest of the player base.

2: Never stereotype a group of people... they have a way of proving you wrong more often than not.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.