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Completely changing Ships, Time for variants? MkI, MkII...
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Nian Banks
Berserkers of Aesir
#1 - 2013-02-06 02:01:46 UTC
So in the recent history of EvE, CCP have been having a nasty habit of completely changing the design of a ship, No not the model, the model is usually just spruced up a bit for bling.

No I mean changing a ship to drop one weapon system completely for another, or switching its tank type, drastically changing the slot layout. That sort of thing.

Most of the time, this isn't about balancing a ship, its more to try and diversify the ship selection without having to make new ships, I.e. Lazy and cost cutting.

The issue here is that allot of people like their ship as it is, its not unbalanced, most older ships are fine, if maybe a little worse (not better) than other ships of its class. So for those people, CCP your pissing them off.

What's a good solution, well why don't we have variants now? A Bellicose MkI been the original layout, then the completely new layout been a MkII. So they add new blueprints for the MkII, research has to be done, ships don't magically become a new version because the old version is still available and can still be built, more options and game graphics.

For content and balancing, as I said, most of the ships that get completely redesigned are worse than their counterparts, or at the least, well balanced to them. For the vast majority of the time, just leave them be, don't do anything to them except sweeping changes like the Hitpoint increase patch or the resistance rebalance. They are an old variant after all...

What does everyone think about this, is it time we asked for our old ships back?
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#2 - 2013-02-06 02:05:50 UTC
Nian Banks wrote:
allot


I was reading when SUDDENLY THAT THING POPPED UP and I forgot what we were talking about?
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#3 - 2013-02-06 02:12:02 UTC
ITT: OP posting about a non-issue that only he cares about.

The only thing anyone cares about was the helios model from back in the day...

The Drake is a Lie
Nian Banks
Berserkers of Aesir
#4 - 2013-02-06 02:26:19 UTC
Wow, two trolls on the line and only one cast of the line, sadly they are small fry to I'm throwing you back in.



Seriously, GTFO, its an issue people do have, if you don't care, then don't reply.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5 - 2013-02-06 03:09:20 UTC
Nian Banks wrote:
Wow, two trolls on the line and only one cast of the line, sadly they are small fry to I'm throwing you back in.



Seriously, GTFO, its an issue people do have, if you don't care, then don't reply.


If the 'new' design is 'worse' then it was changed for balance overall.
I.E. Should everyone have the old Hurricane BPO's still?
So new industrialists can never get in on the OP Cane building, but get stuck with an 'inferior' model.

Even if it is a weapon system change, it is still a balance change. Because it means the ship was either overshadowing another ship that was very similar, or was being significantly overshadowed by another similar ship.

So, long story short, the reason it doesn't happen the way you want it is..... Balance.
Nian Banks
Berserkers of Aesir
#6 - 2013-02-06 03:19:09 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Nian Banks wrote:
Wow, two trolls on the line and only one cast of the line, sadly they are small fry to I'm throwing you back in.



Seriously, GTFO, its an issue people do have, if you don't care, then don't reply.


If the 'new' design is 'worse' then it was changed for balance overall.
I.E. Should everyone have the old Hurricane BPO's still?
So new industrialists can never get in on the OP Cane building, but get stuck with an 'inferior' model.

Even if it is a weapon system change, it is still a balance change. Because it means the ship was either overshadowing another ship that was very similar, or was being significantly overshadowed by another similar ship.

So, long story short, the reason it doesn't happen the way you want it is..... Balance.



You didn't read my first post, read it then fix yours. I said NON balance issues, Changing a ship from a gun ship to a missile ship isn't about balancing it, its about making a new ship with an old hull.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-02-06 03:33:15 UTC
sorry about your cyclone
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#8 - 2013-02-06 03:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Xercodo
Nian Banks wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Nian Banks wrote:
Wow, two trolls on the line and only one cast of the line, sadly they are small fry to I'm throwing you back in.



Seriously, GTFO, its an issue people do have, if you don't care, then don't reply.


If the 'new' design is 'worse' then it was changed for balance overall.
I.E. Should everyone have the old Hurricane BPO's still?
So new industrialists can never get in on the OP Cane building, but get stuck with an 'inferior' model.

Even if it is a weapon system change, it is still a balance change. Because it means the ship was either overshadowing another ship that was very similar, or was being significantly overshadowed by another similar ship.

So, long story short, the reason it doesn't happen the way you want it is..... Balance.



You didn't read my first post, read it then fix yours. I said NON balance issues, Changing a ship from a gun ship to a missile ship isn't about balancing it, its about making a new ship with an old hull.


Now you're just being stupid xD

He didn't "not read your post" he read your post, understood it, and made his post to point out that sadly you are wrong.

Preferably your response would be one that provides an example to prove your point.

The cyclone's change, for instance was to create a more linear progression from Breacher, Talwar and Belicose. If you didn't already know the typhoon is becoming a pure missile ship too.

The Drake is a Lie
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#9 - 2013-02-06 03:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Nian Banks wrote:


You didn't read my first post, read it then fix yours. I said NON balance issues, Changing a ship from a gun ship to a missile ship isn't about balancing it, its about making a new ship with an old hull.


Actually I did, and I answered it in the second half of my post explaining how changes like that are also balance issues, because of ships overshadowing other similar ships. But I'll restate it anyway. If two ships share the same basic role, one of them will always be prefered, for one reason or another. Thus, sometimes to make the ships equally valued one of the ships has to become something else.

Additionally, a further thought since my last post. Is ships are not the only thing being balanced. Weapon systems also get balanced and need appropriate hulls to go on. So a weapons system change on a hull impacts on weapon system balance also.
Nian Banks
Berserkers of Aesir
#10 - 2013-02-06 03:55:29 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
Nian Banks wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Nian Banks wrote:
Wow, two trolls on the line and only one cast of the line, sadly they are small fry to I'm throwing you back in.



Seriously, GTFO, its an issue people do have, if you don't care, then don't reply.


If the 'new' design is 'worse' then it was changed for balance overall.
I.E. Should everyone have the old Hurricane BPO's still?
So new industrialists can never get in on the OP Cane building, but get stuck with an 'inferior' model.

Even if it is a weapon system change, it is still a balance change. Because it means the ship was either overshadowing another ship that was very similar, or was being significantly overshadowed by another similar ship.

So, long story short, the reason it doesn't happen the way you want it is..... Balance.



You didn't read my first post, read it then fix yours. I said NON balance issues, Changing a ship from a gun ship to a missile ship isn't about balancing it, its about making a new ship with an old hull.


Now you're just being stupid xD

He didn't "not read your post" he read your post, understood it, and made his post to point out that sadly you are wrong.

Preferably your response would be one that provides an example to prove your point.

The cyclone's change, for instance was to create a more linear progression from Breacher, Talwar and Belicose. If you didn't already know the typhoon is becoming a pure missile ship too.



I look forward to seeing several Gallente ships with missile bonuses then, given that now you have pulle missile. drone and gun ships for caldari and amarr, minmatar now are either gun or missile ships, when do we get drone ships? Sounds to me like CCP are trying to avoid the balance issues by giving everyone the same weapons. Wonder when projectiles and lasers are removed and everyone is forced to use blasters and rails.


Sorry guys but its CCP been lazy, its not about balance, its about wanting to make new ships but deciding to remove old ones so they can reuse the game models. Having Variants would allow them to do it but not take away peoples toys.

More ship choices are a good thing.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#11 - 2013-02-06 04:07:26 UTC
Nian Banks wrote:



I look forward to seeing several Gallente ships with missile bonuses then, given that now you have pulle missile. drone and gun ships for caldari and amarr, minmatar now are either gun or missile ships, when do we get drone ships? Sounds to me like CCP are trying to avoid the balance issues by giving everyone the same weapons. Wonder when projectiles and lasers are removed and everyone is forced to use blasters and rails.


Sorry guys but its CCP been lazy, its not about balance, its about wanting to make new ships but deciding to remove old ones so they can reuse the game models. Having Variants would allow them to do it but not take away peoples toys.

More ship choices are a good thing.


lol you're looking more and more butt hurt with every post you make because you appear to be incapbale of comprehending CCP's logic...

Amarr are already getting more drone boats.

Quite simply their plan is:

Amarr x Caldari vs Gallente x Minmatar

Both sides will have shield ships (Caldari and Minmatar) and armor ships (Gallente and Amarr)

Both sides' armor faction will have a drone line and a gun line
Both sides' shield faction will have a gun line and a missile line

The factions will still retain their flavor by specializing:
Amarr are primarily guns with one drone line
Gallente are primarily blasters with one drone line (but has a drone BS and drone AF and HAC)
Caldari are primarily missiles with one guns line
Minmatar are primarily guns with one missile line

Minmatar and Gallente are being built to be fast active tankers that run solo or in small gangs (Shield boost bonus, repper bonus)

Amarr and Caldari are built to be slow bricks with logi aid that run in gangs or large fleets (resistance bonus)

As things go on I can potentially see all Minmatar ships becoming shield ships and the Gallente ships swapping mids slots for low slots

They don't HAVE to change the diversity Minmatar has with their tanks and Gallente seems to be looking pretty decent now with the armor changes but tank polarization has the potential to happen...

The Drake is a Lie
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-02-06 04:08:27 UTC
Adapt. It's not hard.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#13 - 2013-02-06 04:09:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Nian Banks wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
Nian Banks wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Nian Banks wrote:
Wow, two trolls on the line and only one cast of the line, sadly they are small fry to I'm throwing you back in.



Seriously, GTFO, its an issue people do have, if you don't care, then don't reply.


If the 'new' design is 'worse' then it was changed for balance overall.
I.E. Should everyone have the old Hurricane BPO's still?
So new industrialists can never get in on the OP Cane building, but get stuck with an 'inferior' model.

Even if it is a weapon system change, it is still a balance change. Because it means the ship was either overshadowing another ship that was very similar, or was being significantly overshadowed by another similar ship.

So, long story short, the reason it doesn't happen the way you want it is..... Balance.



You didn't read my first post, read it then fix yours. I said NON balance issues, Changing a ship from a gun ship to a missile ship isn't about balancing it, its about making a new ship with an old hull.


Now you're just being stupid xD

He didn't "not read your post" he read your post, understood it, and made his post to point out that sadly you are wrong.

Preferably your response would be one that provides an example to prove your point.

The cyclone's change, for instance was to create a more linear progression from Breacher, Talwar and Belicose. If you didn't already know the typhoon is becoming a pure missile ship too.



I look forward to seeing several Gallente ships with missile bonuses then, given that now you have pulle missile. drone and gun ships for caldari and amarr, minmatar now are either gun or missile ships, when do we get drone ships? Sounds to me like CCP are trying to avoid the balance issues by giving everyone the same weapons. Wonder when projectiles and lasers are removed and everyone is forced to use blasters and rails.


Sorry guys but its CCP been lazy, its not about balance, its about wanting to make new ships but deciding to remove old ones so they can reuse the game models. Having Variants would allow them to do it but not take away peoples toys.

More ship choices are a good thing.

How is this about reusing game models when they are replacing all the game models?

PS. CCP I WANT MY V3 Thanny!!!

Edit: oh yeah, how about missile drones? Can I have a drone that fires missiles?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#14 - 2013-02-06 04:24:10 UTC
Nian Banks wrote:


More ship choices are a good thing.


wtf..really...

20 BCs to choose from
33 BSs to choose from
ungodly number of crusiers to choose from not counting every possible permutation of T3s
12 destroyers to play with not counting flavor variants
a metric **** ton of frigates including a mining frig
4 spectacular noobships


Thats just subcap combat ships!

then there are industrials, miners, capitals...


but yeah..I guess we need more ships because you want your old ship back.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Ckra Trald
Ckra Trald Corporation
#15 - 2013-02-06 04:49:10 UTC
Its called T2 hulls

http://www.rusemen.com/ Join Tengoo xd
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#16 - 2013-02-06 05:24:33 UTC
Nian Banks wrote:
Changing a ship from a gun ship to a missile ship isn't about balancing it, its about making a new ship with an old hull.


Sigh. I guess you didn't get the answer you wanted in your previous thread, so now it's time to make another one?

Anyway, the current Cyclone is redundant garbage. It's either a bad Hurricane or a bad Tornado, and has no real purpose. Changing it to a missile ship makes it a useful ship and gives Minmatar three BCs. Keeping it in its current state gives Minmatar two BCs in a patch where everyone else got their ships boosted to have three BCs. Keeping a "Cyclone Mk I" variant around just wastes database space since the ship is still terrible and the only people who will ever use one are clueless newbies and dedicated collectors.

Xercodo wrote:
The only thing anyone cares about was the helios model from back in the day...


This. FFS CCP, give us the old Helios back!

Ok, I care about two things. Give us the original Thorax/Vigilant colors too.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2013-02-06 06:03:49 UTC
I suggest Dominix mk II. Has the exact same fitting/slots/bonus as the current one, but now infinitely less hideous!

Existing Dominix mk I ships stay and become a collector's item (snort), everything else gets bumped up to the new and sexy (and less ugly) mk II!
Nian Banks
Berserkers of Aesir
#18 - 2013-02-06 06:44:01 UTC
Did someone hijack the EvE Forums? Or has the forum become a troll den?

I fail to see why anyone would say no to having variants of a hull (not tech2). It can only add to the game, a good thing.

Also what is wrong with keeping old ships as an option when they are so drastically changed, just to change their role? Hardly a balance issue. No, your arguments against is are poor. You don't add anything constructive to the game.
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#19 - 2013-02-06 06:49:04 UTC
Nian Banks wrote:
Did someone hijack the EvE Forums? Or has the forum become a troll den?

I fail to see why anyone would say no to having variants of a hull (not tech2). It can only add to the game, a good thing.

Also what is wrong with keeping old ships as an option when they are so drastically changed, just to change their role? Hardly a balance issue. No, your arguments against is are poor. You don't add anything constructive to the game.


These things have been bubbling up from Features and Ideas for a while now. Soon, F&I will go the way of CAOD and merge with GD. All the forums are greyed up in one grey list anyway.
Provence Tristram
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-02-06 06:52:08 UTC
I actually agree with the OP... kinda...

I liked the old 'second rate' cruisers. They weren't used much, but it was interesting to have that flexibility that they now lack. Everything is so terribly pidgeonholed into a role nowadays.
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