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Crime & Punishment

 
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Doing it right

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Ristlin Wakefield
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2013-02-05 20:51:39 UTC
Awesome thread! Thanks Skunkworks! :)

I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#82 - 2013-02-05 20:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Unit CA108AF wrote:
Unit CA108AF wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Don't cry about pixels, and this won't be an issue. I have gotten mad about losing my pixels once or twice. First time I took an eve break because I was so emotionally invested it was bad for me, and the second time, well, I saw what I was doing and just started laughing.


Then don't make them cry about the bloody pixels. What's so hard to understand about this? Is civility really so alien to the PvP community now? And why can't people read? Ganking is not my problem, it's the trolling and verbal abuse that continues AFTER the fact.

Quote:
Part of trolling people who do that is to make it clear that those people need to stop playing. Being that invested in an imaginary world is not a good thing, and if you are that invested, you need to get away from it. Sadly, you won't get away from it until you are made to feel absolutely awful about it.

Who are you to not only abuse them verbally, but tell them not to play? And look who's talking. Griefers who troll in an extreme manner are wrapped up in their own little imaginary world that they must beat their virtual chest against their victim JUST to get a reaction. That is sick, plain and simple. I don't care how much you people hide behind "ccp's definition." The world and people see it as abuse. And guess what? You're not pod pilots, you're people. Clearly messed up people at that.

Leave the tear collection culture behind.


Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
Everyone in EVE is my opponent. I will taunt them as I choose.

This is not soccer. I am not here to simply "play the game." I am here to destroy people, destroy corporations, and yes, to reap tears at the destruction I wage.

I expect my opponent to do no less with me.

EDIT: All in game of course. I could careless about their real lives, though I do find it funny when they use it as an excuse to being bad.


See, right there. That's what's wrong. He even had to edit his comment because he didn't want to have people know what he really is; a psycho.

It's about the tears? It's about inflicting grief? Give me a break "tough guy."

This is the unhealthy rage we are talking about. You are so emotionally invested you can't understand what role playing is.

Was my highschool buddy, one of the most devout religious people I have ever known(deacon of his church at 15 years old) and nicest people ever(I saw him go hungry on more than one occasion to help someone worse off) a sicko because when we played D&D he played a chaotic evil rapist?

You need to step back, and probably get some therapy to help you distinguish between the real world and a video game. The mocking comes AFTER the tears, not before, in 90% of the cases of tear collection in this game.

And more than that, guess what, humans are wired by nature to be like this to each other, since we have a pack mentality which requires establishing a pecking order and rank against everyone around us. Civilization teaches us not to be like that, but the urges are still there, and for some, those urges DO need an outlet. Make believe land should be a safe place to vent those urges.

Oh, and before you talk about how horrible people with those urges are, I should point out that people who have those urges are usually the most successful people in the world, since it drives them to be the best.

Not having those urges leads to being happy with mediocrity, but I guess you can look around your life and see that.

Edit: damn people who don't know how to quote right :P

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2013-02-05 20:57:03 UTC
Are you proposing that before we adversly effect someone's gameplay we should ask them questions about their mental state and if losing these pixels will cause them to feel anguish?

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Fabio Bittar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-02-05 20:59:14 UTC
@Unit CA108AF

If you are not satisfied with the game, quit.

The game is great as it is, the cause and consequence in-game are what sets it apart from other games, and CCP supports it fully as is. You are completely ****** up in the head, and you're not going to change it.

It is your idea that committing crimes in real-life are acceptable behavior that I find completely ****** up (just in case it isn't obvious enough to you). Again, there is no such thing as real-life consequences to make-believe realities.

We tried to explain to you a hundred times that if people cry over a videogame, they are in the wrong. You keep replying with the same nonsense over and over. It's nobody's job to make other players happy in a videogame. If we choose to kill, grief, whatever, it's all part of the game, and has nothing to do with our private lives.

This is my final post in this thread. I'm walking away because this person is making me sick. I'd suggest the rest of you to ignore further posts by this person, but it's your choice.
Unit CA108AF
Unit Commune
#85 - 2013-02-05 21:00:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Unit CA108AF
Tallian Saotome wrote:
You need to step back, and probably get some therapy to help you distinguish between the real world and a video game. The mocking comes AFTER the tears, not before, in 90% of the cases of tear collection in this game.

You're very amusing. I need to get therapy because I'm calling out bullying for what it is? If you have a limited world view and cannot see that actions online do indeed seep into the real world, and that the two will NEVER be exclusive to each other, that's your problem. Get educated.

Fabio Bittar wrote:
@Unit CA108AF

If you are not satisfied with the game, quit.

No. I like this game. I dislike the prominent rise of the tear collection culture. And I will continue to speak out against it. If you don't like it, ignore me.

Quote:
The game is great as it is, the cause and consequence in-game are what sets it apart from other games, and CCP supports it fully as is. You are completely ****** up in the head, and you're not going to change it. It is your idea that committing crimes in real-life are acceptable behavior that I find completely ****** up (just in case it isn't obvious enough to you). Again, there is no such thing as real-life consequences to make-believe realities.

I agree, the GAME is great. If you had bother to read instead of giving in to typical bandwagon griefer desire and jumping on someone proposing a different view point, you might understand that. What isn't great are some of the PEOPLE playing this game.

Also, please quote where I ever directly condoned Crime? I believe that to be very offensive. As for your last line, see above to Tallian's response.


Quote:
We tried to explain to you a hundred times that if people cry over a videogame, they are in the wrong. You keep replying with the same nonsense over and over. It's nobody's job to make other players happy in a videogame. If we choose to kill, grief, whatever, it's all part of the game, and has nothing to do with our private lives.


Your "explanations" are nothing but the same old rhetoric of griefer "logic." People who "cry" over games react because people like YOU continue to abuse them again and again and again without filter. Does this mean they should stalk you? No, that's stupid. Does that mean they deserve to be trolled and bullied? No. Not at all. It's not about making people happy, it's about being civil and not pushing someone to the edge just to enjoy their grief and rage. That is absolutely psychotic.

Would you do that to someone face to face? No. It's call netiquette. Learn it.

Quote:
This is my final post in this thread. I'm walking away because this person is making me sick. I'd suggest the rest of you to ignore further posts by this person, but it's your choice.


The same for you, hypocrite.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#86 - 2013-02-05 21:03:43 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
Are you proposing that before we adversly effect someone's gameplay we should ask them questions about their mental state and if losing these pixels will cause them to feel anguish?

No, you have to actually see a certificate from their shrink saying that they are stable and functional
Roll

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#87 - 2013-02-05 21:05:47 UTC
Unit CA108AF wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
You need to step back, and probably get some therapy to help you distinguish between the real world and a video game. The mocking comes AFTER the tears, not before, in 90% of the cases of tear collection in this game.

You're very amusing. I need to get therapy because I'm calling out bullying for what it is? If you have a limited world view and cannot see that actions online do indeed seep into the real world, and that the two will NEVER be exclusive to each other, that's your problem. Get educated.

You need therapy because you can't tell the difference between make believe land and real life.

I call out RL bullies, and people who bring RL into it, but as long as it remains in the game, ITS NOT REAL.

Do you understand the concept of fiction?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Unit CA108AF
Unit Commune
#88 - 2013-02-05 21:10:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Unit CA108AF
Tallian Saotome wrote:
You need therapy because you can't tell the difference between make believe land and real life.

I call out RL bullies, and people who bring RL into it, but as long as it remains in the game, ITS NOT REAL.

Do you understand the concept of fiction?



Do you understand that your actions aren't just magically disappearing because it's a game? If someone in the game said "kill yourself, you suck at this game," does that make it right because it's not real? It's just in the game?

The above is an extreme example I admit, but apparently you people need an extreme example to understand that the GAME IS A A PART OF THE REAL WORLD. You and I exist on Earth, the server's are on Earth, all of this is in our plain of existence, our reality, our life. Therefore our actions are not just "in game," they are on Earth, in reality, affecting another person in a negative way. I'm not talking about the ganking, I'm talking about the extreme amount of trolling and tear collection done by egging someone over and BEYOND the edge just to "enjoy" their suffering. It's deplorable.

Just because you act like an ass in a game does not mean it's all hunky dory and OK to do. Just like in the real world, you be an ass to someone, you reap the consequences. Again, someone stalking someone is a bit much, too much.

But I'm sick and tired of internet bullies hiding behind the "it's only a game" excuse as if it's a free pass to justify their horrible actions.
Alana Charen-Teng
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2013-02-05 21:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Alana Charen-Teng
This particular response by Floppy during the email exchange stood out to me:

You spent all that time trying to analyze us and why we do what we do..have you considered just how sick a puppy you must be? Because Monk and I would never stoop to such levels. What I find somewhat alarming is that you seem to have no concept of just how wrong your behavior has been. I said before that I play a bad guy on the internet. I wonder just how much of a mask your "good guy" character is.

I think we can all agree that Theory666 took this too far.

Psychotic Monk wrote:
Are you proposing that before we adversly effect someone's gameplay we should ask them questions about their mental state and if losing these pixels will cause them to feel anguish?

If a person is not emotionally competent to enjoy the game and to weather the inevitable losses, then that is not the fault of the person inflicting the losses. We may as well conduct surveys with our opponents before sitting down to a game of chess or checkers, to be sure that a loss will not result in a tantrum.
Vojk
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2013-02-05 21:20:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vojk
Unit CA108AF wrote:


But I'm sick and tired of internet bullies hiding behind the "it's only a game" excuse as if it's a free pass to justify their horrible actions.



Isn't this what defines a huge part of EVE's culture though? It's not Hello Kitty online.

I'm here to have fun and as a result often upset people in game. I don't expect them to go to bed crying - in fact the majority of people I **** with don't. I don't consider myself to be a 'tough guy' in any way shape or form. I'm role playing, that's it. To be honest, it's not something I even aspire to be IRL. I'm 8st soaking wet - it's not going to happen.

Those that do get monumentally upset have issues. I'm playing a game not suited to those people who have those issues, as Floppy's thread so beautifully illustrates. Ganking, infiltration, safari, scamming and griefing would have been sucked dry a long time ago if CCP had wanted it any other way. Sure, they mix it up from time to time, but essentially EVE's working as intended.

As for me, I don't recall ever having gotten 'personal' with anyone in game, even when being trolled mercilessly, and I can't see me ever doing so. I've taken much more than I've given in terms of **** slinging, but I've also taken a lot more isk, and that for me is what it's all about.

Your attitude regarding cyberbullying is commendable, but in my opinion it isn't applicable to this particular set of circumstances.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2013-02-05 21:21:47 UTC
I frequently use the Monopoly analogy, but let me use two others and see if that resonates with you.

1) You've bought a movie ticket. The movie you went to see is depressing. You went to it anyways and underestimated exactly how sad the movie is. You find yourself feeling actually super sad. What do you do? Do you just sit there and being soul-crushingly depressed? Do you go to the theater manager or the studio that made the film and demand a reissue or an apology or a refund? Do you simply leave?

In my opinion, only one of those is an appropriate reaction.

2) You've entered into an MMA tournament. You get hit. It hurts. Do you harass your opponent's family and friends after the match? Do you make sure you harden up before the next fight? Do you immediately surrender the match and quit the tournament? (Two of these are appropriate responses.)

Eve is a cutthroat game. No one has ever tried to sell it as anything else. It is the brain equivalent of a full contact sport. If you don't wanna get punched you don't get into a boxing ring. If you can't tolerate having your ships blown up and you carebear assumptions that you brought in from somewhere else questioned, then don't play eve.

There's are thousands of non-contact MMOs. We only have one full-contact MMO.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Unit CA108AF
Unit Commune
#92 - 2013-02-05 21:22:22 UTC
Alana Charen-Teng wrote:
This particular response by Floppy during the email exchange stood out to me:

You spent all that time trying to analyze us and why we do what we do..have you considered just how sick a puppy you must be? Because Monk and I would never stoop to such levels. What I find somewhat alarming is that you seem to have no concept of just how wrong your behavior has been. I said before that I play a bad guy on the internet. I wonder just how much of a mask your "good guy" character is.

I think we can all agree that Theory666 took this too far.


Indeed. Despite deplorable behavior of the griefers, I will 100% agree with you that Theory took his actions much too far.

Still, it calls out to what I mentioned earlier, this prevalent growing culture of tear collection. Pushing people to such extremes just to get a reaction, then action surprise and offended when they happen upon a truly disturbed person?

What in the world did you think was going to happen?
Unit CA108AF
Unit Commune
#93 - 2013-02-05 21:26:13 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
I frequently use the Monopoly analogy, but let me use two others and see if that resonates with you.

1) You've bought a movie ticket. The movie you went to see is depressing. You went to it anyways and underestimated exactly how sad the movie is. You find yourself feeling actually super sad. What do you do? Do you just sit there and being soul-crushingly depressed? Do you go to the theater manager or the studio that made the film and demand a reissue or an apology or a refund? Do you simply leave?

In my opinion, only one of those is an appropriate reaction.

2) You've entered into an MMA tournament. You get hit. It hurts. Do you harass your opponent's family and friends after the match? Do you make sure you harden up before the next fight? Do you immediately surrender the match and quit the tournament? (Two of these are appropriate responses.)


While not exactly applicable to a GAME, as these are other real world situations (much like the bullying in the game is real world action), I do like these illustrations.

I can't agree, but I most certainly like how you adapted them. I can see where you're coming from, I just don't agree. Differing world views I suppose. Still, I like them.

Quote:
Eve is a cutthroat game. No one has ever tried to sell it as anything else. It is the brain equivalent of a full contact sport. If you don't wanna get punched you don't get into a boxing ring. If you can't tolerate having your ships blown up and you carebear assumptions that you brought in from somewhere else questioned, then don't play eve. There's are thousands of non-contact MMOs. We only have one full-contact MMO.


Again, the blowing up isn't my problem, it's what follows....why are people not getting this?
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2013-02-05 21:26:32 UTC
You can't live your life based on the assumption that you could, at any time, be dealing with an unreasonable crazy person. Instead, if you happen across a crazy person, you deal with it appropriately.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Unit CA108AF
Unit Commune
#95 - 2013-02-05 21:31:51 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
You can't live your life based on the assumption that you could, at any time, be dealing with an unreasonable crazy person. Instead, if you happen across a crazy person, you deal with it appropriately.


A differing world view. Hope for the best, expect the worst. The way the world is going, it is best to be very careful with everyone you deal with unless you know them well.

It is irresponsible to assume a stranger is a kind hearted level headed soul willing to take jabs and trolling, in game or the real world (especially the later).
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2013-02-05 21:32:37 UTC
Unit CA108AF wrote:


Again, the blowing up isn't my problem, it's what follows....why are people not getting this?


Because the only thing that has happened here is that his ship got blown up and we demanded isk or assets from him in order for him to get out of a rough spot. Those are completely acceptable and normal things within the context of this game.

Check the chat logs. We didn't call him names. We didn't tell him he was a terrible human being.

And that's not just *us*. In my experience that's most of the people in our profession. There are exceptions, obviously, but by far, in our line of work, the dominate trend is to speak rationally and enjoy what tears we get as a side effect. This isn't howler monkeys gibbering at each other.

And yes, many of us enjoy the tears we get. It shows us we're doing our job well in the same way that swollen eyes show a fighter he's winning or that a crack in an opponents poker face tells you that you've played your hand better.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2013-02-05 21:35:50 UTC
Unit CA108AF wrote:
Psychotic Monk wrote:
You can't live your life based on the assumption that you could, at any time, be dealing with an unreasonable crazy person. Instead, if you happen across a crazy person, you deal with it appropriately.


A differing world view. Hope for the best, expect the worst. The way the world is going, it is best to be very careful with everyone you deal with unless you know them well.

It is irresponsible to assume a stranger is a kind hearted level headed soul willing to take jabs and trolling, in game or the real world (especially the later).


Why? This is a game in which your opponent being put off-balance is a huge factor in victory or defeat? If I step into an MMA ring should I assume my opponent has a thin skull, or should I assume that he or his trainer wouldn't have put him in the ring if that's the case?

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Unit CA108AF
Unit Commune
#98 - 2013-02-05 21:35:54 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:

Because the only thing that has happened here is that his ship got blown up and we demanded isk or assets from him in order for him to get out of a rough spot. Those are completely acceptable and normal things within the context of this game.

Check the chat logs. We didn't call him names. We didn't tell him he was a terrible human being.

And that's not just *us*. In my experience that's most of the people in our profession. There are exceptions, obviously, but by far, in our line of work, the dominate trend is to speak rationally and enjoy what tears we get as a side effect. This isn't howler monkeys gibbering at each other.

And yes, many of us enjoy the tears we get. It shows us we're doing our job well in the same way that swollen eyes show a fighter he's winning or that a crack in an opponents poker face tells you that you've played your hand better.


I'm sorry, but I continue to see more and more abuse (NOT FROM YOU mind you, just in general) and more and more tear culture pushing it's way into the game just to enjoy others pain.

PvP was not about this when I took part in it. As I said before, it was the rush of the fight. Now, it's just about petty insults and trolling. I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me, and I do indeed understand where you come from in this situation, but I simply cannot agree after seeing what's been happening in this game.

It's more bi-partisan than the Senate. High sec vs. Low sec, them vs. us, it's...ridiculous.
Unit CA108AF
Unit Commune
#99 - 2013-02-05 21:37:04 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
Unit CA108AF wrote:
Psychotic Monk wrote:
You can't live your life based on the assumption that you could, at any time, be dealing with an unreasonable crazy person. Instead, if you happen across a crazy person, you deal with it appropriately.


A differing world view. Hope for the best, expect the worst. The way the world is going, it is best to be very careful with everyone you deal with unless you know them well.

It is irresponsible to assume a stranger is a kind hearted level headed soul willing to take jabs and trolling, in game or the real world (especially the later).


Why? This is a game in which your opponent being put off-balance is a huge factor in victory or defeat? If I step into an MMA ring should I assume my opponent has a thin skull, or should I assume that he or his trainer wouldn't have put him in the ring if that's the case?


A cage fight is a very different situation than a verbal confrontation with a potentially psychotic individual.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2013-02-05 21:50:32 UTC
Unit CA108AF wrote:

A cage fight is a very different situation than a verbal confrontation with a potentially psychotic individual.


I'm not sure that it is. You step into a cage assuming everyone there knows what they're getting into and is there on purpose. You step into this game assuming everyone is aware of the nature of the game and feels themselves capable to be there.

You say you see this sort of verbal abuse and in my areas of the game I don't see it. Even the dudes doing this sort of work that I personally detest aren't just flat out calling people names. The only place I've seen the sort of behaviour you describe is from a big blob of TEST (or sometimes individual TESTies.) I don't see it in highsec except coming from carebears towards my kind. I've got plenty of examples of that.

As a quick aside: the bi-partisanship is unfortunate, but given the bloc of whining that has proven in the past that they can cause CCP to buff a ship's EHP because they refuse to defend themselves or have other changes pushed through that are direct attacks on us. This caused a removal of the many shades of grey on our side when it became clear that carebears were getting results by all singing from the same hymn.

We can't afford to not defend ourselves in a fairly cohesive manner.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity