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Incursion adjustment suggestions .

First post
Author
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#1 - 2013-02-05 18:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kodavor
Before I start off I would like to point out that the Incursion content has been out for a good while now . Fortunately / unfortunately I have been in a position where I had to make the fleet compositions and ship fits , tactics to make it work in the best possible way . Because of that , as of late , I have come to realize that my work is done . I have no more fits to improve and no more fleet adjustments to do . The so called Incursion End game content of Sansha Headquarters to myself now is almost the same as lvl 4's . Therefore I have come up with a couple of ideas .

HQ suggestions .

3 - 5 site types . Adjusted rats to implement new key roles into HQ fleets .

Examples :

1) Add a transmission tower 200km off the general fleet . It would serve as a beacon for Sansha elite interceptors to burn to with the aim to call in overwhelming reinforcements to aid them in the battle right away . Can be countered by engaging fleets interceptors reaching the beacon first and neutralizing the Sansha forces in that location and sending out a signal to support their own fleet with increased buffs to avoid severe losses in the later stages of the fleets battle because the Sansha forces were only delayed and will arrive anyway . This would require a fast frigate with a local tank / frigate sized logi ? and proper skill set to dispatch the Sansha targets on the beacon .

2) Add a ship type that has to be neuted dry to be killed ( Bhalls get a good spot though should be doable in a neut fitted BS ) . Fleet gets a role for a Neut fitted ship with a scanner to confirm that the cap of the target is dry .

3) Add a Sansha ongrid booster . One that would be in a very fast frigate and provide enormous boosts to the Sansha fleet . Would orbit out at 70km with such traversals that Battleship guns can not hit it unless the fleet has a Recon ship to web it down at that distance and ( paint it ? ) kill it with cruiser / frigate / drone support .

4) Add an option of triggers . The fleet can choose which ones to kill that way choosing what support Sansha will get and what they will have to battle next .

5) Add a time frame in which the fleet needs to complete the objective . If the fleet can not do it on time it gets gradually overrun by more and more Sansha support and their ships eventually get alphaed one by one if they choose to stay in the site . No tackle on grid from Sansha side to keep the option to warp the fleet off at any given time .

6) Add bonuss ships . A super hard to catch / kill Sansha FC ship which , if tackled ( if not he simply warps off to form a new fleet of Sansha ships ) and killed , would give a good bonus drop ( module / isk / .. a unique ammo charge with a short expiry time that can be used only in Incursion systems and would alpha a key target in your next site if you have the necessary modules on your ship to actually make use of it ) .

7) Add mandatory positioning . Move or die . Possibly a bomber wave to bomb the fleet / parts of the fleet if they simply sit still like ducks in a pond .

The Kundalini Manifest .


1) Add an ability for the supercaps to escape if in danger of being blown to bits . Which supercap pilot would not jump out if he is about to die and he can escape ?

2) Add a timeframe in which a support fleet of subcaps and caps warp in to assist the Sansha mothership if the fleet engaging it fails to kill it on time .
[/list]


Many options can be mixed up to get the proper challenge .



============================================================================


Sites should be doable in PvP / PvE T2 fit Battleships / Cruisers / Frigates in a decent time frame if the fleet and the pilots are properly skilled / fitted . Of course the rewards for such a task should be appropriate if the fleet in successful .

Best regards
Kodavor .



P.S. Assault sites would need some adjustments to take the weight of the majority of the incursion pilots if HQ sites are made into The End Game PvE content that is not meant to be easy . Personally I dislike the fact that in NCN's the fleet needs 2 FC's to complete the site in comparison to the other two sites where one FC is sufficient . I would not mind various small tasks on the same grid but splitting the fleet up is what it makes unattractive for myself .
PiDG30N
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-02-05 20:23:27 UTC
As much as i like the idea of revamping HQs so that they involve more than just broadcast, lock, F1, i don't think this would be the right way to go about it.

Making it mandatory to have very specific roles, such as an interceptor or two, a dedicated neut ship and a huginn, roles that would otherwise be considered for PvP content only, would only make it more difficult for current and future FCs by having to manage a specific fleet composition as well as managing the x number of specific roles that these changes would add as well as those that are currently in place.

In addition, enforcing a minimum value of dps in order to complete the site without losses would make Headquarters available only to those that meet those requirements and would in turn deny potentially thousands of pilots the ability to even attempt this content that they had previously done with ease before these changes. This would turn them into the kind of elitist content that only a fraction of the player base would be able to attempt, and possibly deny whole incursion communities the ability to effectively run these sites.

Another possibility you might not have considered is the number of opportunities for people both inside and outside of the fleet to troll and grief these headquarter sites, such as killing all the triggers deliberately to cause large waves of enemies to spawn, or claiming to carry out a specific role and then deliberately not filling out that role, or perhaps even enough people in the fleet not actually shooting in an attempt to prolong the site past the point in which the addition support ships start to spawn.

In conclusion, while i agree with you that Headquarters are dull and need to be adjusted to provide an engaging experience that players wont get bored of, i feel that these changes would simply make it too difficult for your average pilot/ FC/ community to run. Headquarters should be content that everybody can enjoy not just those that have high dps or can fill specific roles.
DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators
#3 - 2013-02-05 20:25:16 UTC
On top of all that Vanguard sites could use some touch ups too, nothing major but for example more randomization in the waves. Wouldn't it be a surprise in NMC/OTA to get a sniper wave instead of the Auga/Romi/Deltoles, nothing more exciting than to expect the unexpected.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#4 - 2013-02-05 20:58:06 UTC
Kodavor wrote:

The Kundalini Manifest .[/u][/b]

1) Add an ability for the supercaps to escape if in danger of being blown to bits . Which supercap pilot would not jump out if he is about to die and he can escape ?



The Kundalini used to warp out half way into the fight then warp back until one time it got stuck on a wreck & became invulnerable... took us ~45 minutes to get out of the site& thanx to be FC there was no losses.
I was there
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#5 - 2013-02-05 23:17:16 UTC
Would love to hear some more ideas of little things we can do to make Incursions better :)

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sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-02-06 00:11:11 UTC
Make new incursion spawn immediately after all 3 highsec incursions get killed.
Lunaleil Fournier
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-02-06 00:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunaleil Fournier
Have more than Sansha incursions. Have Angel Cartel Incursions, Gurista incursions, etc. Just to mix things up a bit.
Che Shifu
Plausible-Deniability
#8 - 2013-02-06 01:27:11 UTC
I hope the Devs seriously conciter the OP. I perticulary like the idea of EWAR playing a bigger role in Incursions. Twisted

While we are on the topic:

I think Scout sites need a buff (only figs / distroyers allowed in site, half the payout of a VG, difficulty ajusted accordingly - something like that).

VGs need a little more variety, but the difficulty and payout level are pretty good.

Assults, perticulary NCN, need a bit of work. The dual gate idea just doesn't work as it requires a different fleet comp. than the rest of the sites (OCF and NCS). Also, maybe the need to use a little EWAR to prepare pilots for the OP's suggested changes to HQs.

I like most of the changes suggested to HQs that were posted in the OP, so no need to go over those.

Also, if Incursion sites require the use of PVP-type fits, more people may be inclined to try the low-sec /null-sec incursion sites, with the High-sec Incursions being proper training grounds for future PVP adventures.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Hope something comes of this.
goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#9 - 2013-02-06 02:27:02 UTC
PiDG30N wrote:
Making it mandatory to have very specific roles, such as an interceptor or two, a dedicated neut ship and a huginn, roles that would otherwise be considered for PvP content only, would only make it more difficult for current and future FCs by having to manage a specific fleet composition as well as managing the x number of specific roles that these changes would add as well as those that are currently in place.


This is why the OP used the term ‘End Game’, these changes are not being suggested to make Incursions more accessible, the changes would make them less accessible, but I believe there is a very specific group that would do these.
The difficulty of an incursions site comes from finding 10, 20, or 40 pilots, not in doing the site. As most people would agree that once you have the numbers the rest is just F1.
Mandatory roles are already present in NCN’s and they are currently avoided mostly due to the inconvenience of bringing a second ship to an incursion for the occasional chance that it might be needed.


PiDG30N wrote:
In addition, enforcing a minimum value of dps in order to complete the site without losses would make Headquarters available only to those that meet those requirements and would in turn deny potentially thousands of pilots the ability to even attempt this content that they had previously done with ease before these changes. This would turn them into the kind of elitist content that only a fraction of the player base would be able to attempt, and possibly deny whole incursion communities the ability to effectively run these sites.


The entire game is built on denying access to content till the proper tribute has been paid, be it skill points or experience. Allowing HQ’s to be run by any Tom, Richard, or Harry that shows up has been fun but not practical. There should be an expected level of difficulty that ensures AKF pilots and multi-boxing pilots don’t participate in the active fleet, this is not mining and it should not have that level of pilots involved. Additionally from a Min / Max point of view there should be a site that challenges Toons that have MAX trained all their ships skills, and want a place to test those skills to the limit.

PiDG30N wrote:
Another possibility you might not have considered is the number of opportunities for people both inside and outside of the fleet to troll and grief these headquarter sites, such as killing all the triggers deliberately to cause large waves of enemies to spawn, or claiming to carry out a specific role and then deliberately not filling out that role, or perhaps even enough people in the fleet not actually shooting in an attempt to prolong the site past the point in which the addition support ships start to spawn.


I have seen many attempts to sabotage fleet both from inside and outside the fleet. Originally the answer to this was a ban list owned by FC’s, this progressed to building communities that were invite only, and of course those communities had their own sense of pride that protected them and made their exclusivity a lure for upcoming pilots and for Elite griefiers. The original griefer (With-holding Logi) was cured by redundancy. Other attempts at griefing Incursion fleets have been fixed with vetting processes and closed doors. Yes there will be the chance to grief, but there will only be one chance, and as soon as the offender is known the chance is never available for them again. (I personally boot them from fleet in the site, and call someone up from the waiting list)
The idea that is proposed is not for the public channel Incursion fleets, it’s for establish communities with a roster of trusted pilots that do their job every time, and trust the fleet to support them as they support the fleet.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

senior moment
Exiled Dominion
#10 - 2013-02-06 02:30:17 UTC
So the LEET fleets are bored again.... There are still many who find the current format work just fine for small corp fleets. Perhaps try taking your fleets into low and null and run them there... that is after all the progression of eve players. When HS becomes too easy... move out...
Seriously.. leave some form of progression in place.. next thing you want level 2 missions run with 5 man cruiser fleets...
goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#11 - 2013-02-06 02:35:13 UTC
Scout sites are unused to my knowledge, perhaps we need to consider trashing them altogether and setting VG’s as the intro sites, as they can be done with 9Dps and one logi (don’t troll We’ve been doing it for months that way) and then create a ‘Sansha Terror’ System in the Incursions with rewards 4X the current payouts and the difficulty set at the level suggested. Possiblly allowing the low sec mechanics of gate camps and roaming Sansha this should make travel in the system without fleet escort suicide. Of course no camps on the travel gates, I was thinking on the spawn gates.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#12 - 2013-02-06 02:54:35 UTC
Kodavor wrote:
3) Add a Sansha ongrid booster . One that would be in a very fast frigate and provide enormous boosts to the Sansha fleet . Would orbit out at 70km with such traversals that Battleship guns can not hit it unless the fleet has a Recon ship to web it down at that distance and ( paint it ? ) kill it with cruiser / frigate / drone support . [/center]


Well there are already 2 ships that are on grid boosters...

A fun idea is adding 3 different new special off grid booster sites added to VGs,ASSs,&HQs that spawn rarerly & pay better/diferently and until they are defeated the influence bar in that system is increased... but the effects on lo/NULL Incursions would hurt them further
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#13 - 2013-02-06 03:09:48 UTC
goldiiee wrote:
Scout sites are unused to my knowledge, perhaps we need to consider trashing them altogether and setting VG’s as the intro sites,


Well nerfing VG sites further would kill already decimated armour fleets and put the final death nail in lo/NULL SEC incursions
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#14 - 2013-02-06 03:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
DarthNefarius wrote:
goldiiee wrote:
Scout sites are unused to my knowledge, perhaps we need to consider trashing them altogether and setting VG’s as the intro sites,


Well nerfing VG sites further would kill already decimated armour fleets and put the final death nail in lo/NULL SEC incursions


No I don't think we should nerf the VG's I just was throwing out the idea of making the VG's as the intro sites and dropping scouts alltogether. Thereby freeing up systems to make a higher dificulty, it could even be done in a way that the higher dificulty are not requred to complete the Incursion just available to the right fleets with the desire to push the limits of PVE.

As a training ground Scouts are really not capable of preparing someone for VG's and as a whole VG's are easy enough to train a group into with out any seriouse losses.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

mkint
#15 - 2013-02-06 03:50:35 UTC
Scout sites need to be worth doing. If someone can't find a fleet, it would be better to have at least something to do.

If op's proposals for hq sites were to happen, there should be new sites for it. Possibly having these super tricky sites made for smaller fleets. The hard part is fleeting up. If the site difficulty goes up, fleeting difficulty should go down (a la smaller more leet fleets.) Also, more deaths! In the case of fast frigs being required, a suicide mission would encourage t1 frigs and would be awsum. And how about suicide sites? Fleet of t1 cruisers and frigs where only 1 or 2 guys are expected to survive and payout accordingly. It would be pretty fun to compete with your own fleet to be last man standing.

So much potential for incursions, but they totally feel like abandonware.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#16 - 2013-02-06 03:58:34 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Well having the scouts/belt sites did allow me to get this liberation mail and later find out Shadow Cartel got a Revenant & shadow BPC drop from the first lo/NULL sec incursion completed since the Escalatation nerf:
===================================
Liberation of Nadire complete
From: CONCORD
Sent: 2013.01.15 20:55

DarthNefarius



Nadire has been freed from the invading Sansha forces. Your efforts in this matter have not gone unnoticed and we are awarding you loyalty points. More details can be found in the Journal.



In addition, we wish to honor the following pilots, whose individual contribution exceeded everyone else:



1 SmarncaV2 347400
2 slim picins 241923
3 Eress Diane 197814
4 Chandaris 187632
5 Riddick Richard 180353
6 Karbox Delacroix 172348
7 Rain Al'Thor 154062
8 Blackblade23 147753
9 Isotempo 140067



CONCORD
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Niveuss Nye
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2013-02-06 06:33:41 UTC
I remember when I first started, I saw flashing ads in the Quarters talking about this incursion into this system or that system.

I even took a trip out to one of the constellations that one was going down.

Problem is that I found out is that the Incursions have no content unless you are pimped out in ships and equiptment that a newer player can not do. I was kind of disappointed.

Maybe add "novice" content that characters that do not have bigger ships can do and limit that content to destroyers and below like FW complexes?

Also, why does it always have to be Sansha? I would love to see some of the other pirate nations get a bit more "proactive". Extra points if I can actually join the pirates and help them with thier incursion.

I would take my T1 frig and become a belt rat if it meant Concord would not come for me during an incursionPirate.
MainDrain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-02-06 07:53:12 UTC
Lunaleil Fournier wrote:
Have more than Sansha incursions. Have Angel Cartel Incursions, Gurista incursions, etc. Just to mix things up a bit.


DRONES!!
goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#19 - 2013-02-06 08:16:38 UTC
senior moment wrote:
So the LEET fleets are bored again.... There are still many who find the current format work just fine for small corp fleets. Perhaps try taking your fleets into low and null and run them there... that is after all the progression of eve players. When HS becomes too easy... move out...
Seriously.. leave some form of progression in place.. next thing you want level 2 missions run with 5 man cruiser fleets...

I think everyone would agree that the current content is serviceable, I wouldn't want to get rid of missions and I certainly don’t want to make Incursions unattainable for people
.
But that being said, I fly with 20 to 50 people every day that find the best PVE, EVE has to offer, to be lacking. I don’t go back and do lvl2 missions but I know there are some that find them challenging. I no longer have a challenge to take my skills and rig into that seems appropriate.

Low sec Incursions are the same as high sec Incursions only difference being the guaranteed eventual gank fleet looking for opportune Kill mails. The high standards required to effectively do Incursions while similar in principal to PVP are not PVP capable, and are therefore only feasible with large alliances that bring two fleets one to manage the Incursion and one to deal with the opportunist.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#20 - 2013-02-06 08:40:38 UTC
...

*) Add a Guristas missile alpha squads that Sansha hired / brainwashed to assist them . They would warp in and send a HUGE volley of missiles on a certain target and alpha it in one hit unless the target notices it and gain enough velocity to minimize the missile applied damage to survive .

*) Add squadrons that would set void bombs off against the fleet to make the whole fleet cap dry unless countered .

*) Add Add blast radius and huge damage to particular things that the fleet needs to kill . Be it ships or structures ( like in one of the missions where you have to kill a structure and when it explodes all your drones die if you have them out . Was it Damzel of Angel Cartel ? )
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