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Cloak Jammer
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Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort
#1 - 2013-02-05 18:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Trespasser
I started put this in another thread but i thought it would be better for everyone to see it and offer Constructive feedback



1. Have a mod like the cyno jammer but a cloak jammer.. you cant have both running and it needs an upgrade in the Ihub + the mod + it has around the same cost per day as a jammer.

you turn it on and after 30 mins it deactivates all cloaks within the system and they cannot be reactivated till the mod is turned off.

The 30 min timer would show up in space like station timers do for example.

this way you dont have supers ratting in a ni-invulerable state because they can be dropped atleast.

It also gives the cloaky camper a chance to leave by showing the timer throughout the system. So if he is really around and not at work with his computer running at home, he can get away.

the mod is 1billion isk a month in sov cost... The upgrade is quite big and 500mill

You can only have 2 of them per region AND You cant have a cyno beacon or Jump Bridge anchored in the same system as the cloak jammer.


So now, you forcing people to hand light cynos AND They have to use the stargate to get there...



You Cannot have a cyno jammer and a cloak jammer anchored in the same system, you have to pick one or the other..

I know this is a very hotly debated subject.. i feel the cloak as a whole is in a perfect spot.. i just really hate this AFK cloaky aspect.. I have no problem with people raiding supply lines and causing problems but logging in and going to work does none of these objectives other then to shutdown a system for No risk to the cloaky pilot
Mag's
Azn Empire
#2 - 2013-02-05 18:28:26 UTC
No. For all the reasons listed with this idea before.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-02-05 18:30:21 UTC
This was a terrible idea before and still terrible.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort
#4 - 2013-02-05 18:34:54 UTC
well Humor me, i dont sit around this forum all day


What are the reasons?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#5 - 2013-02-05 18:41:22 UTC
Trespasser wrote:
well Humor me, i dont sit around this forum all day


What are the reasons?
Searching often helps. But I'll give you one. Local doesn't need it's intel improving.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#6 - 2013-02-05 18:44:24 UTC
I see.

You want to stop the play dynamic where a cloaked vessel inside a system cannot be found.
The cloaked vessel is being reacted to by the PvE pilots in system, by these pilots exiting areas where they can be attacked.
In simplest terms, this is a stalemate.

I don't feel your solution is quite balanced for overall play, as it simply hands victory to the PvE pilots.
You may not see it in these simple terms, but objectively you cannot deny that it is possible, if not highly probable, that the PvE pilots would use it as such.

You need to be able to counter the cloaked vessel.
For balance, this must be a mutual compromise, with both sides contributing.

The condition for hunting a cloaked vessel must not render them obsolete, or pointless to fly.
This condition is agreed on by many, as not showing cloaked vessels in local chat.
Otherwise, you have effortless detection of a craft not balanced for such easy locating and subsequent combat.
It would be trivialized.

So, there you have it.
Take cloaked vessels out of local chat, mutually viewing and viewed by to be fair.
Pick up the ability to detect and hunt.

WH's, as requested, should probably be left out of these changes.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#7 - 2013-02-05 18:45:57 UTC
u say ur all for attacking the supply lines, but how is that meant to happen when every miner and ratter can see any attack coming well ahead of time?

the PvE players flee and either cloak or sit in a POS the moment an unkown enters local. what is the attacker meant to do then? just leave and allow the PvE players to continue making ridiculous amounts of isk without any risk at all? no. Instead he safes up and cloaks. either afk or not, he stays in system to prevent the core money making systems of an alliance from working.

afk cloaking IS how u attack an enemies supply lines.

as for:
Quote:
well Humor me, i dont sit around this forum all day


What are the reasons?


its not the job of other ppl to constantly repeat this thread over and over again. u should be able to use the search function or read other threads on the same subject, especially seeing how many there are and the fact that u've even posted IN one...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort
#8 - 2013-02-05 19:05:13 UTC
This system has many draw backs...


You have your system open to cynos so anyone can come in if they want to, and since using this mod will cost the same if not more a month then the cyno jammer most alliances wont spam it

IT also gives time for cloakys to leave the system.. if they are really around.


IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage.

If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#9 - 2013-02-05 19:12:26 UTC
Someone cloaked cannot stop you mining, ratting, docking, undocking, using gates, using modules etc. The only one stopping you, is you.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#10 - 2013-02-05 19:15:46 UTC
Trespasser wrote:
This system has many draw backs...


You have your system open to cynos so anyone can come in if they want to, and since using this mod will cost the same if not more a month then the cyno jammer most alliances wont spam it

IT also gives time for cloakys to leave the system.. if they are really around.


IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage.

If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading.

But you also have local giving the local economy zero risk, as regarding PvP vulnerability.

Short of a blob overwhelming the system, your miners and ratters are never at any risk.

You misrepresent the cloaked vessel causing this damage, when it is in fact the stalemate between both sides.

It is a failure of objectivity to not place an equal amount of blame on the pilots hiding from combat, enabled by the same local that tells the hunting pilots that they are present to be found.

The solution requires a sacrifice from both sides, not just one.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort
#11 - 2013-02-05 19:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Trespasser
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Trespasser wrote:
This system has many draw backs...


You have your system open to cynos so anyone can come in if they want to, and since using this mod will cost the same if not more a month then the cyno jammer most alliances wont spam it

IT also gives time for cloakys to leave the system.. if they are really around.


IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage.

If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading.

But you also have local giving the local economy zero risk, as regarding PvP vulnerability.

Short of a blob overwhelming the system, your miners and ratters are never at any risk.

You misrepresent the cloaked vessel causing this damage, when it is in fact the stalemate between both sides.

It is a failure of objectivity to not place an equal amount of blame on the pilots hiding from combat, enabled by the same local that tells the hunting pilots that they are present to be found.

The solution requires a sacrifice from both sides, not just one.




And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up?

I will say 1 thing tho, you atleast offer Constructive Feedback <3
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#12 - 2013-02-05 19:20:33 UTC
Trespasser wrote:
This system has many draw backs...


You have your system open to cynos so anyone can come in if they want to, and since using this mod will cost the same if not more a month then the cyno jammer most alliances wont spam it

IT also gives time for cloakys to leave the system.. if they are really around.


IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage.

If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading.


i think ur the one not reading my friend.

its just as unreasonable that a PvE player can operate alone and with impunity in what is meant to be the most dangerous space in the game. But it is so safe in fact, that it is often referred to as being safer than low sec, and sometimes even hi-sec. true the cloaker has no risk. but neither does the PvE player. hence the balance. no isk is made or lost on either side. note- u have not lost isk, u just have not made any.

ur system would remove the cloakers defence, but it would not remove the PvE player from the POS. so the cloaker would be exposed to PvP gangs but the PvE player would not. The cloaker is routed and the PvE player continues to make money, knowing that he can safe up for as long as he wants, but the cloaker must eventually leave or be destroyed.

so ur idea is most definitely imbalanced

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Mag's
Azn Empire
#13 - 2013-02-05 19:21:45 UTC
Trespasser wrote:

And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up?
Giving up what exactly? The power of surprise and actually any chance to overcome local and it's intel you mean?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#14 - 2013-02-05 19:23:20 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Trespasser wrote:
IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage.

Two things:

1. It is also not reasonable for the attacker to HAVE to afk cloak just to get some kills. When local's perfect intel goes away and/or randoms gain the ability to truly sneak up and nab some ratters/miners in 0.0 systems... then and ONLY then will cloaking need a nerf.
As things stand right now, they are balanced. "Total presence awareness countered by total location concealment."

2. The economic damage is caused by YOU, not the guy cloaking. If you choose to not undock, then you don't make any ISK. As simple as that.

Trespasser wrote:
If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading.

No... we've just established the cause of the problem. And it will not go away if you nerf the "symptom." People will just switch to something else to do the same thing.

For example: you can set an interceptor up to perma-run its MWD and some ECCM mods... plug in the implant set that increases your sensor strength (or the one that reduces your sig radius) to make yourself virtually unprobable... blitz into a 0.0 system, safe up, point yourself in a random direction, turn on your MWD, go afk burning at about 5000 m/sec. Congrats... you now have a new form of "afk cloaking."

edit: the last thread on this subject. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2555542#post2555542

How did you Veterans start?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#15 - 2013-02-05 19:23:34 UTC
Trespasser wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Trespasser wrote:
This system has many draw backs...


You have your system open to cynos so anyone can come in if they want to, and since using this mod will cost the same if not more a month then the cyno jammer most alliances wont spam it

IT also gives time for cloakys to leave the system.. if they are really around.


IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage.

If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading.

But you also have local giving the local economy zero risk, as regarding PvP vulnerability.

Short of a blob overwhelming the system, your miners and ratters are never at any risk.

You misrepresent the cloaked vessel causing this damage, when it is in fact the stalemate between both sides.

It is a failure of objectivity to not place an equal amount of blame on the pilots hiding from combat, enabled by the same local that tells the hunting pilots that they are present to be found.

The solution requires a sacrifice from both sides, not just one.




And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up?

I will say 1 thing tho, you atleast offer Constructive Feedback <3


they are quite trivial costs. and if the cloaker is forced to leave, why isnt there a way to force the PvE player to leave?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#16 - 2013-02-05 19:25:12 UTC
Trespasser wrote:
And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up?

I will say 1 thing tho, you atleast offer Constructive Feedback <3

Whether the blob comes in by a titan bridge or the regular gate, nothing short of this blob of ships can effectively threaten the PvE pilots.

They can get safe before the first hostile gets on grid, every time.

Your system will give them the ability to clear the system of all hostiles, effectively restoring operation to the economy.

Stalemate over, winner PvE defenders.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort
#17 - 2013-02-05 19:33:15 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Trespasser wrote:
And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up?

I will say 1 thing tho, you atleast offer Constructive Feedback <3

Whether the blob comes in by a titan bridge or the regular gate, nothing short of this blob of ships can effectively threaten the PvE pilots.

They can get safe before the first hostile gets on grid, every time.

Your system will give them the ability to clear the system of all hostiles, effectively restoring operation to the economy.

Stalemate over, winner PvE defenders.



I see your point, but you dont think the alliance that owns and is entrenched in that system/region should have a slight advantage?

And Again, it wouldnt be such a problem if people didnt abuse the mechanic. If someone is at there computer and wants to sit in a system cloaked it really doesnt bother me.

Its these people who think its a legit Tactic to cloak in a system and then go to work.. your not even playing the game and this is what i want gone..

The only reason people hate on that is because normal humans dont want to sit in the same system cloaked for 12 hours a day every day, its boring. so thats why people log in and cloak and go to bed etc etc.
Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort
#18 - 2013-02-05 19:34:18 UTC
Quote:


they are quite trivial costs. and if the cloaker is forced to leave, why isnt there a way to force the PvE player to leave?



You do have a way to force the pvers to leave, Take the space... They wont be ratting if you take that space
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-02-05 19:46:11 UTC
Trespasser wrote:
I started put this in another thread but i thought it would be better for everyone to see it and offer Constructive feedback


Yea cause another nerf afk cloaking thread is always good.

Trespasser wrote:
i just really hate this AFK cloaky aspect.. I have no problem with people raiding supply lines and causing problems but logging in and going to work does none of these objectives other then to shutdown a system for No risk to the cloaky pilot


Geez, when will people get it. The AFK cloaker is not shutting down the system. You are, by deciding that the afk cloaker is too big of a threat. Amazingly there are corps and alliances that manage to still get things done even in the face of an afk cloaker. Of course they actually have balls.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#20 - 2013-02-05 19:50:41 UTC
Trespasser wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Trespasser wrote:
And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up?

I will say 1 thing tho, you atleast offer Constructive Feedback <3

Whether the blob comes in by a titan bridge or the regular gate, nothing short of this blob of ships can effectively threaten the PvE pilots.

They can get safe before the first hostile gets on grid, every time.

Your system will give them the ability to clear the system of all hostiles, effectively restoring operation to the economy.

Stalemate over, winner PvE defenders.



I see your point, but you dont think the alliance that owns and is entrenched in that system/region should have a slight advantage?

And Again, it wouldnt be such a problem if people didnt abuse the mechanic. If someone is at there computer and wants to sit in a system cloaked it really doesnt bother me.

Its these people who think its a legit Tactic to cloak in a system and then go to work.. your not even playing the game and this is what i want gone..

The only reason people hate on that is because normal humans dont want to sit in the same system cloaked for 12 hours a day every day, its boring. so thats why people log in and cloak and go to bed etc etc.

What mechanic are they using, to interact with you whilst AFK? What mechanic is being abused?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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