Ships & Modules

At this point, we have all the data needed to calculate final haul time:
The JF takes 12m 30s per trip, and requires 3 trips, giving a final time of 37m 30s. During these trips, he hauls roughly an extra 100k m3 of random stuff to the destination (an Obelisk can handle exactly 18 BS with its 900k m3 cargo at freighter 4 while an Anshar takes 6 BS per trip with 37.5k m3 left over) and about 1m m3 of moon goo/minerals/loot that the carrier can't carry back to Jita.
The carrier+freighter combo takes 7m 45s to travel trough gates to and from the hub, and it has to do 2 of those trips in order to reset for an another go. That is a total of 15m 30s. On top of that, it has to complete 9 round trips with the carrier to move all the BS, each taking 6 minutes. That is a total of 45 minutes added on top of the previous 15m 30s for a total of 60m 30s. On top of that, he had to take a significant risk bringing his freighter trough a gate to low sec and use a cyno 36 times in short succession compared to the 12 a JF needs, which causes delays when a cyno is killed since you, unlike the JF, don't have an another 13 minutes until you need it again, you only have half that, and during that time you're actively jumping around rather then being stuck in a long warp between gates that you can use to focus on your cyno alts and get them new ships.
As if that wasn't enough, the JF can decrease its round trip time even further, either by using the same method of bringing a freighter to low sec and then jumping from there, meaning it only takes 15m 30s plus 3 round trips of 6m for a total of 18m+15m 30s = 33m 30s.

No...I guess you completely missed the part where the JF never took any risks while the carrier took a huge one and that both ships have a round trip time of 6 minutes once the goods is in low sec, even if the jump from high sec part was nerfed, but only needs to take 3 of those trips for a total of 18 mins while the carrier needs 9 trips for a total of 54 minutes (got that the other way around in the post, will edit soon, this makes the JFs advantage even bigger). That is 3 times as long, and even then it's limited to almost only ships rather then anything like the JF, providing a significant advantage for hauling stuff back on the return trip.



Yes, ofcourse they should.
So SP and isk ARE balancing factors? Let's scrap the supercap nerf then.


Some advantages, sure. The supercap version of a capital should indeed have benefits. Properly adjusting it to its role as a supercap would make sure of that, it would take away the ability to use gates and dock, while giving the advantages of a hugely increased hauling capability and EW immunity so you'd need (heavy) interdictors to tackle it. The tank increase compared to its sub-cap brothers are already huge, but I wouldn't mind a small increase to it.
After that, rather then simply out-classing all other haulers, they'd complement them. Bring all those regular haulers (RL equivalent of trucks) and use them to bring stuff from high sec/the station to the JF (the RL equivalent of a big train/ship), which then handles moving it over long distances, and at the end of that the regular haulers step in again and move it to high sec/station.
Just like the supercap nerf is meant to make sure supercaps never obsoletes sub caps, this does the same for the normal haulers. You need the big heavy hitters/haulers with jump drives to deliver a hard punch/big haul somewhere else far away quickly, and you need the sub caps to help them do it by providing defense against hostiles that might attack it and keep it supplied with what it needs to do its job.



No, you seriously can't unless the pilot is a ******, and ship balancing needs to be based on how smart people use the ships. You are completely invulnerable to anything except a VERY big bump (and I haven't tested it, but I think anyone trying to bump you during your 1 minute invulnerability will actually just fly trough you, just like when you try to bump a ship that just undocked), which needs to be strong enough to get the ship out of dock range within 30 seconds of the jump in. Take off whatever time it takes you to undock the Mach after the JF gets in, and then get lined up and up to speed and then for that speed to carry you there and you simply will NOT make it, even if you manage to hit it (unlikely), it will not pass out of dock range before the session change expires and the pilot can dock back up again, especially if he used a good spot on the opposite side of the station compared to where you undock at.
Trying to warp something in on the cyno will fail in a similar way, a significant part of his session change will expire while you're warping, and then you have a very short distance to it to get up to speed for the bump in, so you'd need to burn away and then turn around, using up too much time, or warp at range...which will either put you on the side of the station, or inside it so you can't move anywhere except the random direction the station decides to bump you out in.
Finally, the last remaining option is trying to put up a cyno and jumping in a significant amount of your own caps, but that, too, takes you some time to warp, some more for the friendly caps to hit the jump button, then more for them to actually appear in there. By the time they do, a very small amount of seconds, at most, will be left on the session change, and even on large move ops with 50-100 carriers/JFs/dreads etc it's rare for those caps to bump out of dock range before they can dock, and that's when they have to wait 30 seconds after the bump rather then at most 10 before they can dock.
If any of these things are already on grid, the pilot would fall under the ****** category if he lights his cyno and jumps in anyway.

JFs do die, but only when the pilot jumps to low sec trough a gate, or jump to a POS with a cyno alt that doesn't have the webs and scan res needed to web it into warp before anything but a stealth bomber can even get there if it was off grid, or start locking if it was cloaked, and even then it should have enough scan res to apply the webs before the bomber can apply point.

All do, and so what if supercaps can wipe the floor with sub caps, that just means smart people are using it.


Yeah, but it aligns much faster, and the jump drive makes each trip take a VERY VERY tiny amount of time compared to using gates with the normal freighter. Cargo/trip is about a third, but cargo moved/minute is MANY times higher.


I am aware that it is currently miss-labled as a T2 rather then super cap yes.


Yeah, that sounds tasty...
Says who? Supercarriers and titans are combat super caps, JFs are super versions of the capital class "freighters" and is thus an industrial super cap.


I just checked, and in theory an Orca CAN carry 2 repackaged BS, but it requires industrial command ships V and 2 low slot expanders in addition to 3 cargo rigs, 2 of them T2 (can't do more due to calibration). That gives a total size of 100 951 m3, but in practice, it can indeed only carry 1.

You have not made one single valid point as to why it is a supper cap! All it dose is jump, so what. It has to follow the exact same game mechanics every other jump ship has.

It losses 1/3 it cargo for it, that makes it SUPPER! Did every corp just game up its T1 freighter for THREE T2 jump freighters? So you can't gate camp them?

You and your main toon are the only ones that think it is a supper cap. What did CCP decide to call it a T2 ship just for fun? Just you can pretend its something else, so you can't gate camp them?

You and your main toon have not even made one single valid point about how to nerf something that is working as intended.
What should they nerf the game mechanic's so you can gate camp them?

That is all you want right? You can't gate camp them so CCP should fix what is not broken for you! You don't know how to kill one so CCP should fix it for you!


You think its OP'd then make a valid point on how you change what is WORKING AS INTENDED.

still noticing a gaping lack of "how this change would improve eve gameplay" arguments and hopes that my post explaining why this is a moronic idea in detail will simply fade away

and I should listen to my self and not bother to reply. He will never explain how this T2 ship is a supper cap, and has no idea how to fix game mechanics that are not broken.

Start with outcomes.

My desired outcome is an EVE where industrial activity takes place closer to the economic and military machines that it feeds, i.e. industrial players need a reason to base in nullsec, and significant nullsec alliances need to be significant industrial powerhouses too.

But with the JFs as they are currently, it's far easier and safer to produce everything in highsec and then ship finished products hundred of lightyears to the far reaches of nullsec, than it is to produce those items in nullsec, near to where they are needed. As things are, there is no logical reason for industrialists to build things in nullsec, or for nullsec alliances to develop their industrial arms.

That, to me at least, is a bad state of affairs. The way to make it better is obvious: make it harder to move stuff from highsec to 0.0 via JFs, so it becomes more economical to build things closer to where they are needed.

What exactly needs changing about JFs to achieve this, I don't know for sure. One suggestion would be make JFs 'true' capitals, and unable to use stargates (and therefore unable to enter highsec).

Whatever the case, developing a more distributed in-game economy demands that JFs are nerfed somewhat.

wrong, moron

supercarrier and titan are t1 ships, of a class larger than capital class, that are too big to dock. ship classes are, in order, frigate/destroyer/mining barge/cruiser/industrial/battlecruiser/battleship/capital/supercapital

all of these possess t2 variants except supercapitals (though there are not t2 variants of some ships, such as carriers or dreadnaughts)

a jump freighter is a t2 capital, not a supercap

a zealot is a t2 omen, not a supercruiser

goddamn you are dumb

edit: keep remembering unimportant ship classes

Ooh, I can play that game too.
Moron.
Moron moron.
Mooooroooon.

now go off and hide in the hole centra fled to earlier and never darken these forums with your terrible posting and terrible analysis of eve again