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I need a history lesson from the vets
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Trainwreck McGee
Doomheim
#41 - 2011-10-25 19:38:50 UTC
I remember back in the old days when i did my first incursion. Gods that was forever a go. the good ol days.....wow if only i could go back to those awesome times.

NOW EVE IS DEAD SILVER PLATTER NOOBS BARBIES GOD DAMN NEW GENERATION HAND HOLDING UO EQ MUDS RAWR RAWR

CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool
XIRUSPHERE
In Bacon We Trust
#42 - 2011-10-25 20:07:06 UTC
I remember when smuggling was part of beta and subsequently abandoned because it was broken to all hell. I made 2b isk in a day doing runs around serpentis prime and a corp mate petitioned it.

After launch our first corporation goal was obtaining an Armageddon BPO, the corp CEO stole 90m isk from the fund and sold it on ebay for about $700 dollars.
We funded ourselves by farming rats in serpentis prime and recycling the mods and selling certain mining lasers for 1m isk each at the time which was a fortune.

I had a geddon by 2m sp and had it fit with medium rails Lol and because of horrible lag and DC issues I had cruiser rats take me to 1% structure and had to have corp mates clear the belt before I logged in. After having this happen multiple times and after having corp mates learn of what the CEO had done most of the well off or experienced players I knew turned eve into a cash shop.

People were churning out BS to sell on ebay for 250-300 dollars to pay their rent and student bills. It prompted me to leave for 3 years.

The advantage of a bad memory is that one can enjoy the same good things for the first time several times.

One will rarely err if extreme actions be ascribed to vanity, ordinary actions to habit, and mean actions to fear.
LacLongQuan
Doomheim
#43 - 2011-10-25 20:26:22 UTC
Avon wrote:
Level 4 missions, whilst originally intended for groups of players, were not a bad concept; however, in practice they caused profound issues with the relationship between risk and reward.

Let me explain my reasoning.

Null-sec space used to be a goldmine for people willing to accept the increased danger because it was effectively the only source of rare minerals. The potential profit resulted in open conflict over those scare resources.

The profit from those resources came from selling the minerals to empire space based industrialists who required them for production but were not interested in fighting to get them.

In order for this relationship to work it had to be possible to "print" ISK in the realtive safety of Empire space and the minerals people fought over had to remain rare.

Whilst level 4 missions were great at printing ISK, unfortunately they were equally great at producing the rare minerals that the ISK should have been purchasing from null-sec.

The flow of ISK choked and ever since CCP have been trying to band-aid this fundamental flaw. The direct ISK rewards of 0.0 have increase to compensate, further negating the need for the ISK to flow from empire to 0.0.

Moon-goo is the current "rare mineral" and thus conflict generator, but it lacks the ease of access that mining used to have. This has increased the entry level requirements for making ISK from null-sec whilst at the same time moving the reward to something hard to quantify by the "grunts" involved.
Null-sec has lost the "wild west" feeling it used to have, replaced by a more organised but less personal "war machine".

The bottom line is that the symbiotic relationship between High-sec and Null-sec was lost and level 4 missions had no small part to play in it.

this is how eve should be, nullsec make goods, hisec make isk
Ghoest
#44 - 2011-10-25 20:39:34 UTC
Mission were released very soon after release they have essentially always been part of the game.

Wherever You Went - Here You Are
Kiyirari
Boom Boom Industries
DammFam
#45 - 2011-10-25 20:45:55 UTC
ArrowBack in the day we made book marks for every gate we used in null sec/low sec to warp to 0 Roll it was good isk selling regional book marks...

Arrow I remember when suicide ganking first came about, more of myth at the time Attention but hell ye afk haulers on auto pilot ftw Lol

ArrowBack in the day we would copy hundreds of book marks at the same time to create system wide LAG to get cheap kills in low sec... eventually getting classed as an exploit.

ArrowBack in the day the average EVE population was about 10k on a good night, it was terrifying navigating null sec / low sec with 4k poeple online Blink

ArrowBack in the day recruiting for the corp was easy, now corps are dime a dozern & selling the same old crap.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#46 - 2011-10-25 20:46:47 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:
Lord Ryan wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
kratos candre wrote:
* For missions * I remember when Lvl 4's use to be hard to do. Like angel or gruista extav. where damn near impossible to do solo.


But then people managed to document every behaviour and make guides for every single missions.

Angel Extravaganza IS impossible to do solo if you don't know what the hell you are doing.



My first year, I found buzz kill impossible. AE just takes forever. I haven't seen Buzzkill or Buzz kill in years was it removed?



No it still exists i did it a few days ago



Try it in a low skill hyperion with rails! 200 frickin frigs! Did you do it Gallente space? Pretty sure I haven't seen it since I left gall space.



I think I did this in a trashcan once. Thought it was going to kill me before any buzzes died.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2011-10-25 21:04:06 UTC
For me it isn't access to L4's (or any missions, really) that's keeping me disinterested in null, it's definitely the lack of that "frontier feel" that made null attractive at the outset. Wormholes sort of fill that role these days (especially with POS finally in the game... *those* would have been nice to have at the outset like we had hoped for) but not quite (more nomadic than frontier IMO).

One thought about the whole back and forth over "I wanna gank in hi-sec/people need to leave," to me this isn't so much an indicator that there's a problem around hisec and more that there's something very very wrong with low/null (gankers gonna gank, but a good half of what I've read since I've come back has been about people either wanting an emigration from hisec or at least wanting it to be easier to be all pirate-like in the areas where it's meant to be hard to be all pirate-like). This SOV stuff really *does* seem to be a big part of it to me, along with the relative ease of movement *outside* empire (why aren't the "pirates" trying to hit shipments of moon-goo or titan parts or stuff). If the "big rewards" for PvE and industry etc. are supposed to be out in null (and IMO, they are), that should be where the similarly big prizes are for taking down other players... only, the current game mechanics make it pretty easy to provide security within an alliance that would make CONCORD blush.
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#48 - 2011-10-25 21:21:42 UTC
Quote:
I have grown insanely fat and rich from level 4 missions

Not likely
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#49 - 2011-10-26 01:06:31 UTC
Covert Kitty wrote:
Quote:
I have grown insanely fat and rich from level 4 missions

Not likely




very very fat and very very rich. 
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#50 - 2011-10-26 11:35:23 UTC
ITT, none-too-subtly: Nerf level 4s.

Nerf them? ****, no. They should be re-boosted to what they were like even in my time (late EmpAge/QR start):

1) When the rats did half-again the DPS they do now, and had higher bounties. Looting and salvaging was worth it, and huge extra income.*

2) Whereas now you might get the occasional webber-frig or three, and the even more occasional lone pointer, you used to get at least 3-5, all webbing and pointing. And that was just from one mob. "Pulling" full additional aggrio was not something you did unless you were VERY experienced and high-skilled.

3) Shoot an aggro- or spawn-trigger/drift into a proximity aggro-trigger's range at the wrong time? It will hurt. A lot.

4) Aggro the room? This will hurt even more. 30s max, till you find yourself looking at your wreck from your pod, going "WTF-derpity-derp.....?What?"

Back then, being able to say, "Yeah, I can solo l4 Sansha's Vengeance, AE4 (and being able to even consider trying the bonus room), or any of the Enemies Abound (5/5, you needed mates, no two ways around it), or any of "The Blockades.", actually meant something.

That, and the resulting ISK/LP faucet didn't mean the whole universe and its' wife flew faction-fitted Vargurs, either--even owning one, let alone being able to use it effectively, was a real achievement.

*Although I consider the rig-resize, and their resulting greater accessibility, a fundamental boon for EVE, I also remember when Fried Interface Circuits sold for ISK 1.2-1.6Mn--each--instead of ISK 12-16,000, after an old corpmate introduced me to salvaging, and I always salvaged everything--even hisec belt frigate-rats. Angel and Blooder/Sansha salvage still =- best salvage, regardlessBlink. No-one but the very, very rich used rigs, and even then only on BB's, but everyone could salvage and make great money (which meant that mission-runners were more inclined to shoot at you if you ninja-looted...Oh, to have discovered ninja-salvaging then!)Cool

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#51 - 2011-10-26 11:40:02 UTC
This is true. i did worlds collide the other day while reading the forums. And im sure that most mission runners could do the same when they have done it 100 times.

but im not calling for a nerf i just wanted a history lesson :)
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Tanya Fox
Doomheim
#52 - 2011-10-26 11:47:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Fox
Renan Ruivo wrote:
kratos candre wrote:
* For missions * I remember when Lvl 4's use to be hard to do. Like angel or gruista extav. where damn near impossible to do solo.


But then people managed to document every behaviour and make guides for every single missions.

Angel Extravaganza IS impossible to do solo if you don't know what the hell you are doing.




People use guides to do missions?


Sounds like that takes the fun out of it.

Only ever checked a guide on a mission once and that was after the event, because I lost a Raven in a lvl 3 mission due to a scrambling drone, mainly because I was told there where no scrambling drones in level 3s. Anyway checked the guide and there was no scrambling drone listed, so it would not have helped anyway.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#53 - 2011-10-26 11:56:13 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
(please refrain from "i remember when this goddam game was alive kid". Actually do if you want)


Next questions

1. In your opinion did level 4 missions remove the need for people do leave highsec to make isk

2. Due to the easy nature of level 4 missions are they just a more complicated form of mining (think about it people, eh eh)

3. CCP was there a rise in the playerbase when level 4 missions were introduced.



well the isk value was higher then too, a hundred million isk was a big deal.

1) Yes. There was a cry early on when EvE was starting to look like a PvE game, for CCP to move all level 3 and 4 missions to low sec. But a lot of people threatened to quit.

2) No. Its supposed to be more interesting then mining. Which its not. All forms of PvE are boring imo.

3) I believe so yes. CCP dumbed the game down, started providing 'professions' style options to people to do missions in relative safety. A lot of the very early hardcore pvpers left.

I did little things to make money, mined a little, joined a corp that provided a lot of assistance (PIE). . . but in the olden days, there was no real race to get into bigger ships. there were 4/5 frigs, 2 cruisers, 2 battleships and one industrial per race. Battleships were big and powerful, but expensive. So I lived in a punisher and sometimes switched to my Maller for more 'serious' pvp. Before t2 too. . . so it was a very different game.
Ghoest
#54 - 2011-10-26 12:14:08 UTC
Anyone growing super rich from missions is working way to hard for their isk.

Wherever You Went - Here You Are
Jonni Favorite
Red Slice Enterprise
#55 - 2011-10-26 23:36:30 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
kratos candre wrote:
* For missions * I remember when Lvl 4's use to be hard to do. Like angel or gruista extav. where damn near impossible to do solo.


But then people managed to document every behaviour and make guides for every single missions.

Angel Extravaganza IS impossible to do solo if you don't know what the hell you are doing.



My first year, I found buzz kill impossible. AE just takes forever. I haven't seen Buzzkill or Buzz kill in years was it removed?

Some missions are only available in certain faction space
Jonni Favorite
Red Slice Enterprise
#56 - 2011-10-26 23:43:19 UTC
Tanya Fox wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
kratos candre wrote:
* For missions * I remember when Lvl 4's use to be hard to do. Like angel or gruista extav. where damn near impossible to do solo.


But then people managed to document every behaviour and make guides for every single missions.

Angel Extravaganza IS impossible to do solo if you don't know what the hell you are doing.




People use guides to do missions?


Sounds like that takes the fun out of it.

Only ever checked a guide on a mission once and that was after the event, because I lost a Raven in a lvl 3 mission due to a scrambling drone, mainly because I was told there where no scrambling drones in level 3s. Anyway checked the guide and there was no scrambling drone listed, so it would not have helped anyway.

After you do a thousand L4s they become a means to an end and not the fun content they used to be..
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