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Where's Red Frog an Push on this nerf NPC thing?
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Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#161 - 2013-02-05 06:36:15 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Oh yeah, thats right, people whined until corp hopping was declared no longer an exploit.


The people doing the whining were trying to have it declared an exploit.

That was exactly my point.
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
They can also join decshield, or any number of other large organizations dedicated to dealing with wardecs... wait, didn't I mention the wardec ally system earlier?


And you are still in the position of not being able to interdict my supply chain because you insist on doing so in hisec under the protection of a wardec.

And.... Ganking would solve this how? You keep insisting thats the way to do it, so explain how ganking would overcome this? Wardeccing NPC corp would handle any situation ganking would, as well as providing a large isk sink, and removing an obviously flawed shelter that doesn't really belong in EVE.

All your talk about exploiting(not as in rules violation exploit) corp hopping doesn't change this, it just shows that you are absolutely determined to hide your freighter from wardecs at all costs.

Wardeccing NPC corps would also make it damn easy to shut down nullsec supply lines, since its pretty easy to figure out who the logistics corps for an alliance are, if they don't hide in the NPC corp. If they do and you can wardec them, well, you can easily interdict them.

My ideas may have ways to work around them, but your 'One Gank fits all' solution is ridiculous.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#162 - 2013-02-05 06:39:13 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:

You don't do homework on your targets to find their alts/allies/assets before you attack?


You think they'll all be easily traceable by someone who's making a good effort to hide them?

Some of them you have to figure out as the situation unfolds, but thats why you should have someone collecting and sorting intel in real time. You can only get away with an unknown alt once, and then it will be a known alt.

This is why a good corp structure has people who do that as their primary job during wartime.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#163 - 2013-02-05 06:41:16 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
And.... Ganking would solve this how? You keep insisting thats the way to do it, so explain how ganking would overcome this? Wardeccing NPC corp would handle any situation ganking would, as well as providing a large isk sink, and removing an obviously flawed shelter that doesn't really belong in EVE.


Suicide ganking the freighter means you have successfully interdicted the supplies and caused the pilot economic harm. Wardeccing results in no kill, because the freighter hops corps. Thus trivially showing that wardecing does not handle any situation that suicide ganking does.

Unless you assume that freighter pilots are all silly fools who will haul to a battle zone under wardec with no escort.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#164 - 2013-02-05 06:44:52 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
This is precisely why wardec evasion needs to be fixed and NPC corps need to go away. This sort of **** provides nearly complete safety in high-sec except from suicide ganking, which is quite avoidable unless you're a complete idiot. We almost have Trammel here in EVE for ****'s sake. Roll

My opinion differs. What is needed is to fix industry so that you need to enter lowsec and nullsec to make the big profits. What is needed is to fix industry so that you cannot supply mountains of titanium in the form of passive targeters and 425mm rail guns. So you need more freighters, you need supply caravans, you need escorts, you need to have vulnerabilities.

My opinion actually isn't that far off: You either fix wardec evasion or you nerf high-sec to ****. Fixing industry so it's crap in high-sec and much better to run out of a POS in low, null, or WH space would be a big step forward. The only thing left after that is to nerf high-sec grind profits.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#165 - 2013-02-05 06:47:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Mara Rinn wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
This is precisely why wardec evasion needs to be fixed and NPC corps need to go away. This sort of **** provides nearly complete safety in high-sec except from suicide ganking, which is quite avoidable unless you're a complete idiot. We almost have Trammel here in EVE for ****'s sake. Roll


My opinion differs.

Your opinion is that the inclusion of wardecs (nonconsensual PVP) in EVE online is some sort of fluke and that evasion and subversion of the wardec mechanic is a legitimate and intended part of the game's design (despite being for the majority of EVE's existence deemed an exploit). That correcting these admitted errors in game design is 'futile' because players will find "new ways to circumvent it", despite when the most basic of fixes are applied, wardec evasion quickly becomes extremely costly if not outright unviable. Frankly, they aren't "opinions", they're unbacked claims.
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
The Whale Hunters Association
#166 - 2013-02-05 06:49:54 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
And.... Ganking would solve this how? You keep insisting thats the way to do it, so explain how ganking would overcome this? Wardeccing NPC corp would handle any situation ganking would, as well as providing a large isk sink, and removing an obviously flawed shelter that doesn't really belong in EVE.


Suicide ganking the freighter means you have successfully interdicted the supplies and caused the pilot economic harm. Wardeccing results in no kill, because the freighter hops corps. Thus trivially showing that wardecing does not handle any situation that suicide ganking does.

Unless you assume that freighter pilots are all silly fools who will haul to a battle zone under wardec with no escort.



alot of morons fly freighters under war decs
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#167 - 2013-02-05 06:50:06 UTC
"Fixing" wardec evasion only provides a means for players to grief others out of the game.

Hisec industry doesn't need to be nerfed to crap, it just needs to be put entirely in player hands. The only "nerf" really needed is to fix POS refineries, add POS reprocessing plants, and turn all refineries & reprocessing plants into activity lines with finite throughput. Well, that, and severely restricting the number of NPC activity lines of any type.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2013-02-05 06:50:10 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:

You don't do homework on your targets to find their alts/allies/assets before you attack?


You think they'll all be easily traceable by someone who's making a good effort to hide them?

Some of them you have to figure out as the situation unfolds, but thats why you should have someone collecting and sorting intel in real time. You can only get away with an unknown alt once, and then it will be a known alt.

This is why a good corp structure has people who do that as their primary job during wartime.


What makes a known alt? Someone transporting goods to and from a target's home station doesn't make them an alt for example, could just as easily be someone who made their home there, possibly an alt not even directly related to them. I just can't see it being easy unless they do something blatantly obvious or jumping to conclusions.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#169 - 2013-02-05 06:56:18 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
I agree easy solution is to remove Concord..

yes, instead just make offenders autoexplode....

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#170 - 2013-02-05 06:57:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Your opinion is that the inclusion of wardecs (nonconsensual PVP) in EVE online is some sort of fluke and that evasion and subversion of the wardec mechanic is a legitimate and intended part of the game's design (despite being for the majority of EVE's existence deemed an exploit). That correcting these admitted errors in game design is 'futile' because players will find "new ways to circumvent it", despite when the most basic of fixes are applied, wardec evasion quickly becomes extremely costly if not outright unviable. Frankly, they aren't "opinions", they're unbacked claims.


Hello Mr. Fairground Fortune Teller. Don't give up your daytime job.

My opinion is that wardecs provide a useful means for engaging in PvP in hisec. Evasion of wardecs is human nature: attempting to force people to fight is counter productive. If wardec evasion becomes too costly, the player will simply stop playing or complain to CCP about being "dog piled" and insist that mutual wardecs be retractable, and that people who depend on war allies should not have the option of also making a war mutual.

My opinion is also that you should express your own opinion, and refrain from attempting to divine my opinion.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#171 - 2013-02-05 06:58:00 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
"Fixing" wardec evasion only provides a means for players to grief others out of the game.

Incorrect. There are many motives aside from that for starting a war and if wardec evasion were more limited you'd probably see those reasons come to light. Furthermore, need I remind you that griefing is a bannable offense?

Mara Rinn wrote:
Hisec industry doesn't need to be nerfed to crap, it just needs to be put entirely in player hands. The only "nerf" really needed is to fix POS refineries, add POS reprocessing plants, and turn all refineries & reprocessing plants into activity lines with finite throughput. Well, that, and severely restricting the number of NPC activity lines of any type.

Yes, nerfed to ****. High-sec should only support medium or small towers as well, mainly because the limit on cap ships. If you want industry to be profitable outside of high-sec you must remove the lion's share, and more, of NPC lines.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#172 - 2013-02-05 07:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Karl Hobb wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
"Fixing" wardec evasion only provides a means for players to grief others out of the game.

Incorrect. There are many motives aside from that for starting a war and if wardec evasion were more limited you'd probably see those reasons come to light. Furthermore, need I remind you that griefing is a bannable offense?


Harassment is bannable. Wardecing a corporation out of the game is not bannable.

There are many motives for starting wars, certainly. I am merely pointing out that making it too hard to escape a war is providing a too-easily abused tool for grief play.

Karl Hobb wrote:
Yes, nerfed to ****. High-sec should only support medium or small towers as well, mainly because the limit on cap ships. If you want industry to be profitable outside of high-sec you must remove the lion's share, and more, of NPC lines.


Not nerfed to uselessness, just put into player hands. You do not need capital ships to take down large towers, you just need a few friends with Abbadons, Guardians and spare time.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#173 - 2013-02-05 07:31:49 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
"Fixing" wardec evasion only provides a means for players to grief others out of the game.

Incorrect. There are many motives aside from that for starting a war and if wardec evasion were more limited you'd probably see those reasons come to light. Furthermore, need I remind you that griefing is a bannable offense?

Ban gankers and wardecers.

Or at least nerf them so much they'll be unable to tell which end of the 1400mm Artillery II to point at the "enemy".

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#174 - 2013-02-05 07:36:34 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
I am merely pointing out that making it too hard to escape a war is providing a too-easily abused tool for grief play.

Easily avoidable if you use such tactics as "Hire Some Allies", or "Use A Scout", or the illustrious "Not Be In A One Man Corporation". Perhaps even "Surrender". There are many tools to use in game if you find yourself wardecced. Not logging in for a week (or ever again) is also an option, but in reality it is an emotionally fueled response that is used mainly by forum warriors who have never fought a war in their life and are losing their argument. If you can't handle PvP, why are you playing this game?

By the way, if you find someone willing to camp a one person corporation in for a week straight could you have them contact me? I could use their services.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#175 - 2013-02-05 08:02:10 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
If you can't handle PvP, why are you playing this game?


If you can pvp, why are you then shooting mission runners and miners in hi-sec?

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#176 - 2013-02-05 08:03:58 UTC
dexington wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
If you can't handle PvP, why are you playing this game?


If you can pvp, why are you then shooting mission runners and miners in hi-sec?


Because it's PvP.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#177 - 2013-02-05 08:09:42 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
dexington wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
If you can't handle PvP, why are you playing this game?


If you can pvp, why are you then shooting mission runners and miners in hi-sec?


Because it's PvP.


its the most pathetic form of pvp, where the "elite" pvp'ers constantly whine about how hi-sec needs nerfs and gankers needs buffs, because the game is to hard... would be nice is people could just do their sinful dirty business and be quit about it.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#178 - 2013-02-05 08:16:55 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Ah the "carebear dollar" myth, where the baseless assertion that people who are absolutely PVP-intolerant form a significant part of the CCP's bottom line is pushed forward, despite riskfree PvE expansions that catered to these people correlating with little growth and being considered failures.


I don't recall "PvE expansions" and "riskfree" said about EvE seems a nonsense. We had a failed expansion (Incarna) which is not PvP or PvE, because there's no "vP" or "vE" inside a technology preview consisting of one room where one can't do anything but walk. We had Incursions, which was badly balanced (ISK wise) but people like Amzi turned it into not exactly "riskfree".
So your point is?


Also, about carebear dollars, I don't exactly like situations. Like I don't like when it rains on my car I washed 5 minutes earlier. But it happens. Dollars exist, those players exist and I have found not a single MMO where there are no such "carebears".

Finally, refusing to undock knowing people with RR and similar, specialized in docking games etc. is not a carebear act, but it's called "not uselessy lose stuff you know you'll lose it for sure".

You don't see how every single (bad made) PvP MMO has spawn camping and every single PvP MMO where there's spawn camping those who are weaker don't respawn, don't accept "ress", don't go in to give you kill points / renown / whatever is the reward. When someone's losing their pants, victory denial is the last step before giving up and logging out.
You seem part of the crowd I talked about in past posts who feel like you should be able to farm people till they quit. Because - incredibly enough - in PvP there are consistent losers and a game NEEDS to retain them (with a parachute on their final defeat) else you end up in a MMO that is a photocopy of low sec: wolves seeking for prey that vanished years ago.
I'll tell you, I have played at least 2 MMOs that ended like a photocopy of low sec... they were empty. Despite the PvP being much more fun than in EvE, there was nothing to do in there, the consistent losers had all quit after developers implemented what you ask for. In the end I had to quit them myself, useless to pay $15 a month to twist your thumbs in an empty PvP MMO.


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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#179 - 2013-02-05 08:23:19 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Ah the "carebear dollar" myth, where the baseless assertion that people who are absolutely PVP-intolerant form a significant part of the CCP's bottom line is pushed forward, despite riskfree PvE expansions that catered to these people correlating with little growth and being considered failures.


I don't recall "PvE expansions"

Tyrannis, Incursion

didn't really read past that point since I figured it was more of what I just quoted
hth
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#180 - 2013-02-05 08:25:06 UTC
OP assumes there's cohesion or coherency in the "I want to kill more people" side of the arguement, and an inability for the freight corporations to just put each individual freighter in a different 1-man corp on the "We're going to haul things" side of the solution to his invented scenario.