These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Where's Red Frog an Push on this nerf NPC thing?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#141 - 2013-02-05 06:03:45 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Tul Breetai wrote:
... they want to wardec "people who use NPC corps to avoid wardecs". It's not limited to a career. It was never limited to a career. It is limited to those who hide in NPC corps. It alwasy has been limited to those who hide in NPC corps. Those who hide in NPC corps includes anyone in an NPC corp, regardless of reason. Those who hide in NPC corps aren't necessarily intentionally "hiding" but are necessarily exempt from the risk of wardec, hence the terminology. So it is limited to those who are in NPC corp, which is necessarily a form of "hiding", whether intentional or otherwise. They want to wardec people who are hiding in NPC corps. It is not limited to a career because people in NPC corps have many careers, and are not even necessarily limited to one career. So it will include haulers, missioners, post-wardec corpies, miners, scammers, traders, pvpers, drug dealers, smacktalkers, pedophiles, Matari slaves, fish... wait, which game are you playing?

So instead you want a million one man corps that are dropped like a rock as soon as the wardec notice hits? You're still not going to get the wardecs you want and on top of that there's a **** ton more data clogging the Corporation DB.

I hope you would at least keep somewhat of a safe haven for newbies till they learn how to corp hop too…


I want to make regular npc corps deccable and make it impossible to be in one of the nondeccable schools after 30-35 days. I'm not in the petty bloodthirsty crowd, and to any half intelligent person I never gave the impression I was. You'll find everything you said is irrelevant.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#142 - 2013-02-05 06:07:55 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
If I am camping you into a station, and I see one NPC freighter dock up, I can wardec said NPC corp and deal with it in the future, same as I would currently if I saw a freighter from a PC corp.

You are saying our fixes don't work because they are a solution to the problem they are to fix, which makes no sense at all.


You would wardec corps because someone docked at a station with a freighter?

So anyone wardecced by you should hole up in Dodixie or Hek, yeah?

You mean in a system it would be pointless to try and intedict because the supplies are already there? Its never a bad idea.

This is where strategic awareness comes into play, and understanding more about combat than small scale tactics.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#143 - 2013-02-05 06:10:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
What if I resupply by simply posting buy orders in station?

Your fanciful idea of wardecing every freighter pilot in the game will get you a world of frustration, before it will starve me of resources.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#144 - 2013-02-05 06:12:04 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
I don't care who you are or what you do, so I had no homework to do. I'm only stating what your views WILL do. Not to mention you already have to deal with people without wardeccing, just not in the way you'd like. Hell, I'm against direct wardecs against individuals, I am for expanding kill rights though to essentially be a wardec on the basis of they made the first blow, now you have the choice to esculate it *shrugs*. And to pay you the same respect as you tried to pay me, if you don't like how the system in this game works, go play something else. You're the one with a problem with the current state of things, why should your whims be the ones bowed down to and everyone else have to leave? Hmm? Maybe think about that next time you try to use that as an argument. PvP isn't the only way to interact with people.

Don't slander my name by calling me a ganker if you can't back it up with fact. Don't attack people in a personal way that way unless you are ready to get flamed.

You are right, PVP isn't the only way. Hence why I was referring to making friends when I was talking about interacting. Reading comprehension is your friend.

Why do you think I am fighting for a change? Did I start this thread? I am discussing changes other people have proposed, and in one case trying to make a suggestion that is considerably less insane than alot of the other things I have seen, as a 'middle ground'. None of this is going to happen, there will never be an actual NPC corp nerf, no matter how much it is desired, but it is fun to discuss.

The only change I would really fight for at all is letting me bring my cap fleet to highsec, since I love flying capships, and am not currently in a political situation that allows me to fly mine. No point in even trying to fight that fight tho, since it would cause incredible backlash against CCP from carebears who already think that PVPers can bring too much firepower to bear on them.

I LIKE the friends I make, and the grudges people have, the hate is what makes EVE work, and letting people hide from that is a failing, both in game design and in those people.


If you want to take things personally, that's fine, the statement stands though. There is no reason beyond ganking to want to attack an NPC corp as a whole. There really isn't. And frankly, it doesn't hide them from that hate. It just makes it harder to get at them. If I were to draw a real life comparison, you punch someone in the face irl because you hate them, you get arrested. On EVE, you get your ship blown up. In otherwords, your actions have a consequence, just not one someone might like. And again, as I've stated, I think there should be some workarounds, but not at the detriment of everyone else. High sec doesn't need to be turned into essentially low/null sec. It should be relatively harsh on the aggressors while still giving them some room to act. That's why its high sec.

I don't think that paying the maximum amount that a wardec can cost is exactly siomething done for pure griefing, not for long. Any one of the the NPC corps has enough member to ensure that the wardec fees will be capped, so you better be space rich, and even then you would need a reason.

You do realize that wardec costs scale with the number of people are you deccing, right?

And as I said, it better to dec the corp as a whole than it is to dec a single person, as deccing a single person is almost guaranteed to violate CCP's harrassment rules.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#145 - 2013-02-05 06:12:04 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
What if I resupply by simply posting buy orders in station?

Your fanciful idea of wardecing every freighter pilot in the game will get you a world of frustration, before it will starve me of resources.


Please continue to grasp at straws.

It amuses me.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#146 - 2013-02-05 06:14:33 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Please continue to grasp at straws.

It amuses me.


Buying equipment using buy orders is "grasping at straws"?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#147 - 2013-02-05 06:15:32 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
What if I resupply by simply posting buy orders in station?

Your fanciful idea of wardecing every freighter pilot in the game will get you a world of frustration, before it will starve me of resources.

There is always a workaround, of course, but why should it be cheap or easy for either side? As I said, it would not be cheap to wardec the npc corp to commit to this interdiction, and it would not be cheap to get your corp stocked via buy orders... to get someone to haul it all promptly would mean those buy orders would have to be way over market.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#148 - 2013-02-05 06:16:45 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
Please continue to grasp at straws.

It amuses me.


Buying equipment using buy orders is "grasping at straws"?


The man has controlled your game by forcing you to place buy orders instead of shuttling around with your freighter.

GF
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2013-02-05 06:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Aren Madigan
Well aware the costs scale, yadda yadda, you're overlooking something again, example this time being there being enough people to make enough of a hefty profit off them to make up for the cost. Unless, you know... a lot of people leave or just sit in station all the time more than usual. Which I suppose is likely, but then that'd mean instead of encouraging people to get involved as you were saying earlier, it'd have done the exact opposite. And again, never said anything about individual decing. If you have kill rights on someone, they did something to earn it, which should be the same as pretty much giving permission to attack them.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#150 - 2013-02-05 06:20:46 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Well aware the costs scale, yadda yadda, you're overlooking something again, example this time being there being enough people to make enough of a hefty profit off them to make up for the cost. Unless, you know... a lot of people leave or just sit in station all the time more than usual. Which I suppose is likely, but then that'd mean instead of encouraging people to get involved as you were saying earlier, it'd have done the exact opposite. And again, never said anything about individual decing. If you have kill rights on someone, they did something to earn it, which should be the same as pretty much giving permission to attack them.

But what about their alts? Or if they got those kill rights on a throwaway alt?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#151 - 2013-02-05 06:22:53 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
What if I resupply by simply posting buy orders in station?

Your fanciful idea of wardecing every freighter pilot in the game will get you a world of frustration, before it will starve me of resources.

There is always a workaround, of course, but why should it be cheap or easy for either side? As I said, it would not be cheap to wardec the npc corp to commit to this interdiction, and it would not be cheap to get your corp stocked via buy orders... to get someone to haul it all promptly would mean those buy orders would have to be way over market.


So you wardec the NPC corp. This buys you lots of targets, but the freighter pilot shifts to a 2-person corp. You then wardec that corp, the player moves to a new corp. I keep getting supplies using that same freighter pilot and you never get to shoot it under the protection of a wardec. The most favourable outcome for you would be if I drag the freighter pilot's corp into an alliance with some friends who like PvP. Then you get the fights you could have had by heading out to lowsec in the first place. Otherwise you end up wasting time and ISK maintaining wardecs with shell corps.

I am sure your reasoning sounds fine to you. But you need to explain it better, I am having trouble following the logic to the conclusion where you get to shoot the freighter under protection of a wardec without facing 3:1 odds due to the freighter pilot having friends.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#152 - 2013-02-05 06:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
EI Digin wrote:
The man has controlled your game by forcing you to place buy orders instead of shuttling around with your freighter.

GF


Are you assuming I would put up buy orders … to fill by having my alt sell stuff to me … you can't really be suggesting that could you?

I post buy orders for stuff because I can't be bothered to shuttle around with my freighter. That is one of the reasons we have buy orders: hey random stranger, here is a 1% commission for shipping the stuff I need from Dodixie to Aunia!

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#153 - 2013-02-05 06:26:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
What if I resupply by simply posting buy orders in station?

Your fanciful idea of wardecing every freighter pilot in the game will get you a world of frustration, before it will starve me of resources.

There is always a workaround, of course, but why should it be cheap or easy for either side? As I said, it would not be cheap to wardec the npc corp to commit to this interdiction, and it would not be cheap to get your corp stocked via buy orders... to get someone to haul it all promptly would mean those buy orders would have to be way over market.


So you wardec the NPC corp. This buys you lots of targets, but the freighter pilot shifts to a 2-person corp. You then wardec that corp, the player moves to a new corp. I keep getting supplies using that same freighter pilot and you never get to shoot it under the protection of a wardec. The most favourable outcome for you would be if I drag the freighter pilot's corp into an alliance with some friends who like PvP. Then you get the fights you could have had by heading out to lowsec in the first place. Otherwise you end up wasting time and ISK maintaining wardecs with shell corps.

I am sure your reasoning sounds fine to you. But you need to explain it better, I am having trouble following the logic to the conclusion where you get to shoot the freighter under protection of a wardec without facing 3:1 odds due to the freighter pilot having friends.

Oh yeah, thats right, people whined until corp hopping was declared no longer an exploit.

And people wonder why any suggestion to protect carebears is fought tooth and nail by people who want to prevent EVE from becoming a kiddy game Roll

They can also join decshield, or any number of other large organizations dedicated to dealing with wardecs... wait, didn't I mention the wardec ally system earlier?

Edit: There is no way to shut it down completely, but does that mean it needs to be EASY? Isn't that the same logic used to make gankers lives harder and harder over the past few years?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2013-02-05 06:27:54 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Well aware the costs scale, yadda yadda, you're overlooking something again, example this time being there being enough people to make enough of a hefty profit off them to make up for the cost. Unless, you know... a lot of people leave or just sit in station all the time more than usual. Which I suppose is likely, but then that'd mean instead of encouraging people to get involved as you were saying earlier, it'd have done the exact opposite. And again, never said anything about individual decing. If you have kill rights on someone, they did something to earn it, which should be the same as pretty much giving permission to attack them.

But what about their alts? Or if they got those kill rights on a throwaway alt?


Then too bad? I mean, only way to even slightly solve that is limiting to one char per account or having people link accounts together, which removes spying amongst other things. And really, I'm sure that's FAR in the minority of why people would get attacked in the first place. How do you know its going to be x person's alt without a bit of homework or them telling you? And what difference would it be if it was an alt in a single player corp that hid well, switching out to a new alt if it gets war decced? You're not going to solve every single issue, much less with something completely ineffectual.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#155 - 2013-02-05 06:29:14 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Well aware the costs scale, yadda yadda, you're overlooking something again, example this time being there being enough people to make enough of a hefty profit off them to make up for the cost. Unless, you know... a lot of people leave or just sit in station all the time more than usual. Which I suppose is likely, but then that'd mean instead of encouraging people to get involved as you were saying earlier, it'd have done the exact opposite. And again, never said anything about individual decing. If you have kill rights on someone, they did something to earn it, which should be the same as pretty much giving permission to attack them.

But what about their alts? Or if they got those kill rights on a throwaway alt?


Then too bad? I mean, only way to even slightly solve that is limiting to one char per account or having people link accounts together, which removes spying amongst other things. And really, I'm sure that's FAR in the minority of why people would get attacked in the first place. How do you know its going to be x person's alt without a bit of homework or them telling you? And what difference would it be if it was an alt in a single player corp that hid well, switching out to a new alt if it gets war decced? You're not going to solve every single issue, much less with something completely ineffectual.

You don't do homework on your targets to find their alts/allies/assets before you attack?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#156 - 2013-02-05 06:29:19 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Oh yeah, thats right, people whined until corp hopping was declared no longer an exploit.


The people doing the whining were trying to have it declared an exploit.

Tallian Saotome wrote:
They can also join decshield, or any number of other large organizations dedicated to dealing with wardecs... wait, didn't I mention the wardec ally system earlier?


And you are still in the position of not being able to interdict my supply chain because you insist on doing so in hisec under the protection of a wardec.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#157 - 2013-02-05 06:30:30 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
So you wardec the NPC corp. This buys you lots of targets, but the freighter pilot shifts to a 2-person corp. You then wardec that corp, the player moves to a new corp.

This is precisely why wardec evasion needs to be fixed and NPC corps need to go away. This sort of **** provides nearly complete safety in high-sec except from suicide ganking, which is quite avoidable unless you're a complete idiot. We almost have Trammel here in EVE for ****'s sake. Roll

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2013-02-05 06:30:38 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:

You don't do homework on your targets to find their alts/allies/assets before you attack?


You think they'll all be easily traceable by someone who's making a good effort to hide them?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#159 - 2013-02-05 06:34:53 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
What if I resupply by simply posting buy orders in station?

Your fanciful idea of wardecing every freighter pilot in the game will get you a world of frustration, before it will starve me of resources.

There is always a workaround, of course, but why should it be cheap or easy for either side? As I said, it would not be cheap to wardec the npc corp to commit to this interdiction, and it would not be cheap to get your corp stocked via buy orders... to get someone to haul it all promptly would mean those buy orders would have to be way over market.


So you wardec the NPC corp. This buys you lots of targets, but the freighter pilot shifts to a 2-person corp. You then wardec that corp, the player moves to a new corp.
Ban NPC corps, make individuals decable, institute exponential corp cooldown timers to prevent corphop abuse.
Simple stuff really.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#160 - 2013-02-05 06:35:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Karl Hobb wrote:
This is precisely why wardec evasion needs to be fixed and NPC corps need to go away. This sort of **** provides nearly complete safety in high-sec except from suicide ganking, which is quite avoidable unless you're a complete idiot. We almost have Trammel here in EVE for ****'s sake. Roll


My opinion differs. What is needed is to fix industry so that you need to enter lowsec and nullsec to make the big profits. What is needed is to fix industry so that you cannot supply mountains of titanium in the form of passive targeters and 425mm rail guns. So you need more freighters, you need supply caravans, you need escorts, you need to have vulnerabilities.

The argument about freighters hiding in NPC corps or evading wardecs is the wrong argument.

The only meaningful targets for wardecs in hisec are POSes. For everything else, you need to move the activities to low or null where CONCORD will not interfere.

Neo (incredolous) :”You mean I can dodge bullets.”
Morpheus “No, Neo. What I mean is, that when you’re ready you won’t have to.”

Day 0 Advice for New Players