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Where's Red Frog an Push on this nerf NPC thing?
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Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-02-05 03:45:05 UTC
The only thing about adjusting null sec that'd be a problem is if its done wrong, it'd just solidify existing alliances further, and just continue the status quo, except they'd be able to exert even more influence outside of it than they already do and be even harder to stop as they could afford to put more towards their own protection... so yeah, I can see why they aren't in a rush to do that.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#102 - 2013-02-05 03:50:02 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
The only thing about adjusting null sec that'd be a problem is if its done wrong, it'd just solidify existing alliances further, and just continue the status quo, except they'd be able to exert even more influence outside of it than they already do and be even harder to stop as they could afford to put more towards their own protection... so yeah, I can see why they aren't in a rush to do that.

I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH FRIENDS TO TAKE SOV SO NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2013-02-05 03:51:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Balthisus Filtch wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Ah the "carebear dollar" myth, where the baseless assertion that people who are absolutely PVP-intolerant form a significant part of the CCP's bottom line is pushed forward.


Have to point out how wrong you are. Seek out CCP's fanfest presentations from last year. Hi-sec dwellers are a very significant proportion of the game. People who mission a very heathly proportion of people that play the game. CCP would be absolutely mad to change the balance. And of course these are the very casual players who do pay for subscriptions money not ISK for plex.
"Highsec dweller" and "mission runner" is not synonymous was "will unsub when confronted with PvP". I'd even assert that most players who join EVE are aware that nonconsensual PvP might happen, and started paying for subs anyway.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#104 - 2013-02-05 03:55:50 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
The only thing about adjusting null sec that'd be a problem is if its done wrong, it'd just solidify existing alliances further, and just continue the status quo, except they'd be able to exert even more influence outside of it than they already do and be even harder to stop as they could afford to put more towards their own protection... so yeah, I can see why they aren't in a rush to do that.


One appeal of the "farms and fields" idea for revamping nullsec is that if done along the same lines as FW with class-restricted sites, along with revamped POS industry, there would be ample opportunity for guerrilla warfare. Being able to spend an evening with a bunch of folks in frigates and cruisers, actually having some kind of impact on the big bad guys in nullsec in ways that they can't address by simply hot dropping a fleet on top of you: wouldn't that be awesome?

Forget mission running, let's go plunder some gated sites in nullsec which produce valuable thing X. Or perhaps with ring mining it becomes in feasible to defend or attack with capital or supercapital ships, so ninja ring mining becomes "a thing"?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#105 - 2013-02-05 03:56:39 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:

Maybe stop trying to force people to play your way and accept there's more ways to playing the game than yours? There are problems with the NPC corps, sure, but stamping your feet and trying to slap everyone in the face is about as much of a terrible answer as crying about it is. Either suck it up or figure out a method to fix the issues that isn't essentially a thinly veiled insult towards those who don't think like you.


I'm not forcing people to play my way. I want them to play on the same playing field as everyone else does in the game. That's not much to ask.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2013-02-05 04:06:51 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Apparently suicide ganking is too hard for some people, since they want the ability to wardec individual characters in an NPC corp, thus removing the expense of a suicide gank fleet. Perhaps they think the individual might undock in an expensive loot piñata while wardecced? I don't understand the reasoning.
Apparently defending themselves or non-AFK gameplay in EVE is too hard for some people. So they make bizarre self-contradicting quips about how suicide ganking (an act of pilot error) is valid and common but someone undocking during a wardec (an act of pilot error) is absurd and futile, making wardec evasion reform pointless.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2013-02-05 04:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Mara Rinn wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
The only thing about adjusting null sec that'd be a problem is if its done wrong, it'd just solidify existing alliances further, and just continue the status quo, except they'd be able to exert even more influence outside of it than they already do and be even harder to stop as they could afford to put more towards their own protection... so yeah, I can see why they aren't in a rush to do that.


One appeal of the "farms and fields" idea for revamping nullsec is that if done along the same lines as FW with class-restricted sites, along with revamped POS industry, there would be ample opportunity for guerrilla warfare. Being able to spend an evening with a bunch of folks in frigates and cruisers, actually having some kind of impact on the big bad guys in nullsec in ways that they can't address by simply hot dropping a fleet on top of you: wouldn't that be awesome?

Forget mission running, let's go plunder some gated sites in nullsec which produce valuable thing X. Or perhaps with ring mining it becomes in feasible to defend or attack with capital or supercapital ships, so ninja ring mining becomes "a thing"?

If you wanted to have an effect on big nullsec alliances, why not attack their supply freighters autopiloting past you every day? Let's not delude ourselves into thinking there's titan bridges on standby to deal with the "Mara Rinn frigate roam threat".
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2013-02-05 04:11:43 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
The only thing about adjusting null sec that'd be a problem is if its done wrong, it'd just solidify existing alliances further, and just continue the status quo, except they'd be able to exert even more influence outside of it than they already do and be even harder to stop as they could afford to put more towards their own protection... so yeah, I can see why they aren't in a rush to do that.


One appeal of the "farms and fields" idea for revamping nullsec is that if done along the same lines as FW with class-restricted sites, along with revamped POS industry, there would be ample opportunity for guerrilla warfare. Being able to spend an evening with a bunch of folks in frigates and cruisers, actually having some kind of impact on the big bad guys in nullsec in ways that they can't address by simply hot dropping a fleet on top of you: wouldn't that be awesome?

Forget mission running, let's go plunder some gated sites in nullsec which produce valuable thing X. Or perhaps with ring mining it becomes in feasible to defend or attack with capital or supercapital ships, so ninja ring mining becomes "a thing"?


Its worth considering at least I'm sure... really all I can do in terms of what I say about null sec is to point out the obvious. I have no experience in it, no idea how many of the strategies that come to my mind in its existing interation are and aren't viable, etc. If there's a way to energize null sec rather than reinforce the status quo, I'd say go for it. Status quo being easy to maintain makes for stagnation, which seems to be the key issue a lot of nullsec people who come to the forum have... or the excuse why the people in high sec wanting it to not have the safeties it does don't just go to low or null sec. See when I get there, I suppose.

EI Digin wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:

Maybe stop trying to force people to play your way and accept there's more ways to playing the game than yours? There are problems with the NPC corps, sure, but stamping your feet and trying to slap everyone in the face is about as much of a terrible answer as crying about it is. Either suck it up or figure out a method to fix the issues that isn't essentially a thinly veiled insult towards those who don't think like you.


I'm not forcing people to play my way. I want them to play on the same playing field as everyone else does in the game. That's not much to ask.


The reality of the matter is that isn't what it'd do. It'd shift the playing field entirely to player corps because they're the ones with the numbers and resources and the only thing holding them back are those safety mechanisms. I've been in the MMO world long enough to know how things go when there aren't limitations in place. It has yet to lend itself to anything remotely resembling a healthy game as a direct result of the kind of sadistic behavior goes on.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#109 - 2013-02-05 04:42:38 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
I am in favor of being able to dec the non-noob corps, but if you dec a corp, you dec the WHOLE corp and not one dude.


Replace non-noob with non-starter and you are on the way to understanding why they are currently immune to wardecs. The non-starter NPC corps are where capsuleers end up when kicked from player corps, such as when they have been away from the game too long.

I imagine it would be a trifle upsetting for someone returning to the game after two years to find they are in an NPC corp with no assets, at war with a dozen 1000-strong alliances who are perpetually camping certain stations or gates.

A returning vet would be smart enough to, you know, LEAVE the NPC corp? As someone said, 8 minutes to form your own. Requires no assets(what returning vet has NO assets, seriously?) and a skill book that costs next to nothing.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/npc/The_Scope

For all those complaining about how the poor NPC corps will be out numbered... Just one of the non-noob NPC corps has 145655 members, and iirc from my time in them, hundreds of people logged in to them at any given time.

They have the numbers, and would be more than capable of breaking a blockade, even a hellcamp from one of the bigger coalitions.

Also, what returning vet logs in into the noob systems?

You are grasping at this point, and failing to make realistic claims.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2013-02-05 04:51:49 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
A returning vet would be smart enough to, you know, LEAVE the NPC corp? As someone said, 8 minutes to form your own. Requires no assets(what returning vet has NO assets, seriously?) and a skill book that costs next to nothing.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/npc/The_Scope

For all those complaining about how the poor NPC corps will be out numbered... Just one of the non-noob NPC corps has 145655 members, and iirc from my time in them, hundreds of people logged in to them at any given time.

They have the numbers, and would be more than capable of breaking a blockade, even a hellcamp from one of the bigger coalitions.

Also, what returning vet logs in into the noob systems?

You are grasping at this point, and failing to make realistic claims.


Assuming that the book is immediately accessible at the time and that their new corp wouldn't be immediately decced to get at them and assuming that the NPC corp players would work together to break a gank (hint, it rarely works out that way). You're assuming things are going in an idealistic fashion that just isn't the case, or you're pretending to believe it in hopes that it'll change CCP's view, who are smart enough to identify these sort of issues, and have in fact probably seen them before, thus why they have these things in place in the first place.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#111 - 2013-02-05 04:54:00 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
For all those complaining about how the poor NPC corps will be out numbered... Just one of the non-noob NPC corps has 145655 members, and iirc from my time in them, hundreds of people logged in to them at any given time.

They have the numbers, and would be more than capable of breaking a blockade, even a hellcamp from one of the bigger coalitions.


Okay, you login on an alt in The Scope and arrange for 10 people to meet in Uedama. Go ahead, see how much luck you have.

Tallian Saotome wrote:
Also, what returning vet logs in into the noob systems?


I don't know how noob systems came into the picture. I can think of far more profitable gates to camp if one was at war with every single NOC corp. Uedama, Niarja, Sivala, to name a few. Heck, the Perimeter gate in Jita would be a good bet.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#112 - 2013-02-05 04:55:45 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
A returning vet would be smart enough to, you know, LEAVE the NPC corp? As someone said, 8 minutes to form your own. Requires no assets(what returning vet has NO assets, seriously?) and a skill book that costs next to nothing.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/npc/The_Scope

For all those complaining about how the poor NPC corps will be out numbered... Just one of the non-noob NPC corps has 145655 members, and iirc from my time in them, hundreds of people logged in to them at any given time.

They have the numbers, and would be more than capable of breaking a blockade, even a hellcamp from one of the bigger coalitions.

Also, what returning vet logs in into the noob systems?

You are grasping at this point, and failing to make realistic claims.


Assuming that the book is immediately accessible at the time and that their new corp wouldn't be immediately decced to get at them and assuming that the NPC corp players would work together to break a gank (hint, it rarely works out that way). You're assuming things are going in an idealistic fashion that just isn't the case, or you're pretending to believe it in hopes that it'll change CCP's view, who are smart enough to identify these sort of issues, and have in fact probably seen them before, thus why they have these things in place in the first place.

if somehow you are in a noob station, the book will be available, as they are seeded there. If you are not in a noob station, then the point is moot anyway because you aren't at this magic camp.

And it frequently works that way, thats how people form player corps, which is kinda what is being encouraged here(get out of the NPC corps, they should NOT be shelters).

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#113 - 2013-02-05 04:57:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Mara Rinn wrote:

Okay, you login on an alt in The Scope and arrange for 10 people to meet in Uedama. Go ahead, see how much luck you have.

Get the scope wardecced so there is actual motivation Roll

Edit: don't forget, if you wardec the scope, they get to call for allies... there are enough REAL PVP corps who would jump on that for the joy of having fights at those gate camps. Its kinda what EVE is all about.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#114 - 2013-02-05 04:59:32 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

Okay, you login on an alt in The Scope and arrange for 10 people to meet in Uedama. Go ahead, see how much luck you have.

Get the scope wardecced so there is actual motivation Roll



Get The Scope wardecced, people will move to 1-man corporations or simply not log in. Or happily leave their trading alts in the corp knowing that they never undock anyway.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#115 - 2013-02-05 05:04:11 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
If you wanted to have an effect on big nullsec alliances, why not attack their supply freighters autopiloting past you every day? Let's not delude ourselves into thinking there's titan bridges on standby to deal with the "Mara Rinn frigate roam threat".


That one's easy: The farms and fields would be within alliance sov, so you'd know who you were weakening. Nullsec alliance logistics pilots are almost always either NPC corp alts, or they're in plausibly deniable alt corps. Mara's trying to find something for smaller groups to do; they're not going to know which NPC corp freighter to gank unless they have well-placed spies inside the alliance they're trying to sabotage--and no spies in their own corp from that alliance. That hardly encourages high-sec freighter ganking as a "farms and fields" style disruption. The only way for small corps to take advantage of the near-Jita pipeline is to become pirates who don't care whose freighters they gank as long as the drop makes it profitable. Their effect on sov will be random noise.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#116 - 2013-02-05 05:08:37 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

Okay, you login on an alt in The Scope and arrange for 10 people to meet in Uedama. Go ahead, see how much luck you have.

Get the scope wardecced so there is actual motivation Roll



Get The Scope wardecced, people will move to 1-man corporations or simply not log in. Or happily leave their trading alts in the corp knowing that they never undock anyway.

Characters that never undock are effectively irrelevant to any discussion of wardecs Blink

And better they are in a 1 man corp and able to take part in more of the game than hiding from it in an NPC corp.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2013-02-05 05:09:09 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Assuming that the book is immediately accessible at the time and that their new corp wouldn't be immediately decced to get at them and assuming that the NPC corp players would work together to break a gank (hint, it rarely works out that way). You're assuming things are going in an idealistic fashion that just isn't the case, or you're pretending to believe it in hopes that it'll change CCP's view, who are smart enough to identify these sort of issues, and have in fact probably seen them before, thus why they have these things in place in the first place.

if somehow you are in a noob station, the book will be available, as they are seeded there. If you are not in a noob station, then the point is moot anyway because you aren't at this magic camp.

And it frequently works that way, thats how people form player corps, which is kinda what is being encouraged here(get out of the NPC corps, they should NOT be shelters).
[/quote]

Yes, because I'm sure its only the "noob systems" that'd be camped... totally. Not a short sighted prospect at all. Give me a break.... also frequently working that way does not make it the majority of the time, and forcing it is the worst possible thing you can do. Point is there's no legitimate reason to target an NPC corp as a whole. Plenty of legitimate reasons to attack members within it for one thing or another, but you really don't have a case beyond the actions of individuals and forcing people to play your way. If its about those individual actions, that's what the focus should be on countering not because "oh, they should join a player corp so I can gank em." The game doesn't revolve around you. Ideas that revolve around your playstyle and rejects everyone elses without cause are going to end up rejected. Simple as that, and that's exactly what this does. It won't be about going after that hauler, or that trespasser, or whatever, it'll be all about farming easy kills without consequences. No one should be so blind as to see that it'd be any other way.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#118 - 2013-02-05 05:09:13 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
If you wanted to have an effect on big nullsec alliances, why not attack their supply freighters autopiloting past you every day? Let's not delude ourselves into thinking there's titan bridges on standby to deal with the "Mara Rinn frigate roam threat".


How do I know which freighters are part of the logistics chain for the alliance I wish to weaken? If I simply gank any freighter carrying tech materials, I will be working in CFC favour since they sell the materials elsewhere and it was random Jonhisec industrialist I just ganked. Price of tech goes up, CFC makes more ISK.

On the other hand, if I can weaken CFC sov by invading their space and running complexes or ganking their miners, that directly weakens CFC at the grass roots level.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#119 - 2013-02-05 05:12:04 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Characters that never undock are effectively irrelevant to any discussion of wardecs Blink


Yet you counted them.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#120 - 2013-02-05 05:12:56 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
If you wanted to have an effect on big nullsec alliances, why not attack their supply freighters autopiloting past you every day? Let's not delude ourselves into thinking there's titan bridges on standby to deal with the "Mara Rinn frigate roam threat".


How do I know which freighters are part of the logistics chain for the alliance I wish to weaken?
Eveskunk alliance standings, or a spy.