These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

What is the goal of nerfing? and why should a new player get excited about this game?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Airmid Abellio
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-02-05 01:30:29 UTC
As I browse the forums I read post after post of the player base that is extremely unhappy with the recent nerfs/future nerfs occurring in this game. these are just a few examples:

* AI changes - some players state drones get obliterated some state you are just dumb and not recalling drones right.

* AI changes - ecm extreme, td extreme, room aggro hosed

* Heavy Missile Nerf - reduced range for all of those afk tengu's in lvl4 missons?

* Incursions nerfed..

* Exploration? was this ever profitable in hs or did it get nerfed at some point?

* Racial BC/Destroyer skills introduced - longer for new players to cross train now

* T3 - getting nerfed..

* Passive resists skill useless for shields now?

* skill training time boost nerfed - now uses neural remaps..

* researching datacores - nerfed with introduction of dc's into fw

I'm sure I am leaving off many many more.. my point is most if not everything done in this game from a career path perspective for a new player pretty useless.. If the intent is to attract new players to the game why not introduce content that can be both profitable and fun? I'm sure the risk vs. reward argument is coming here but honestly how many brand new players come into the game and go straight to null/wh's? .. this isn't a troll post I would really like someone to explain these concepts so I can understand why profitable content is nerfed..
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-02-05 01:31:12 UTC
A nerf in a single aspect is a buff to every other aspect simultaneously.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Balthisus Filtch
RISE Inc.
#3 - 2013-02-05 01:35:24 UTC
It's pretty annoying when you train something and then just when you start using it, it gets nerfed. Inconsistency can lead to a lot of frustration.

But it happens to pretty much all the games out there. Devs are always trying to rebalance stuff, especially in the light of newer releases which might have created unwanted/unexpected imbalance.

I think its just something you have to put up with playing these types of games.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-02-05 01:44:41 UTC
Eve has been and always will be in constant development; it's a fundamental aspect of the game.

Deal wiz it or just move on.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Kaethe Kollwitz
#5 - 2013-02-05 01:47:03 UTC
nerfing. I once knew someone that quit playing having spent months training for a Gallente T2 BC that then got nerfed. True story.

That said, nerfing is good. It accomplishes the following:

deters players from training FOTM
stops weapon power creep through buffs

nerfs are nearly always better than buffs in this game.

[URL=http://runners-alliance.weebly.com/index.html]1. THIS IS NOT AN ALLIANCE!![/URL]  - [URL=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=202586&find=unread]2. FREE PRIZE GIVEAWAY[/URL]
Airmid Abellio
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-02-05 01:50:51 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Eve has been and always will be in constant development; it's a fundamental aspect of the game.

Deal wiz it or just move on.


Thanks for the .. less than intelligent response.. I will file you in the category of I know everything adapt or die or quit personality.

Airmid Abellio
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-02-05 01:52:00 UTC
Kaethe Kollwitz wrote:
nerfing. I once knew someone that quit playing having spent months training for a Gallente T2 BC that then got nerfed. True story.

That said, nerfing is good. It accomplishes the following:

deters players from training FOTM
stops weapon power creep through buffs

nerfs are nearly always better than buffs in this game.



Great explanation.
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#8 - 2013-02-05 02:00:34 UTC
Nerfing is the sad, misguided attempt to make things that are not equal...equal. Unfortunately, more often than not, it breaks some things, or removes a niche use from a ship or mod, essentially rendering it useless. Some nerfs are necessary, yes, but a good three-quarters are knee-jerk reactions by CCP in response to a chicken little, easy mode, strawman argument.

John Hancock
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-02-05 02:05:41 UTC
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
Nerfing is the sad, misguided attempt to make things that are not equal...equal. Unfortunately, more often than not, it breaks some things, or removes a niche use from a ship or mod, essentially rendering it useless. Some nerfs are necessary, yes, but a good three-quarters are knee-jerk reactions by CCP in response to a chicken little, easy mode, strawman argument.


Nice examples you got there.
ACE McFACE
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-02-05 02:14:51 UTC
You're only focusing on the nerfs, not the buffs and balancing that made so many ships actually useful. Plus im pretty sure "skill training time boost nerfed - now uses neural remaps.." isn't actually a thing, mainly because what you said doesnt make sense.

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#11 - 2013-02-05 02:18:34 UTC
you basically listed all things which haven't been BUFFED and there is a good reason why.. because they where to good compared to alternatives (if there where any).

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#12 - 2013-02-05 02:33:14 UTC
Maybe some of it is just busy work for the devs. They have been doing a lot of tinkering lately, but its part of a long term plan of implementing new ships and content. IDK for myslef I kind of enjoy the changes, they create something new to think about. I'm a drone guy myself so the new AI has been a little worrisome, but in practice the lowsec rats are not anywhere near as bad as sleepers so it hasn't been that much of a setback.
lollerwaffle
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-02-05 03:06:09 UTC
My comments in bold below.

Airmid Abellio wrote:
* AI changes - some players state drones get obliterated some state you are just dumb and not recalling drones right.

* AI changes - ecm extreme, td extreme, room aggro hosed

Mission runners (people who ONLY run missions) cried out for more challenging missions and AI, then changes happen, they whine incessantly about it. Nothing to see here.

* Heavy Missile Nerf - reduced range for all of those afk tengu's in lvl4 missons?

HM Nerf was due to their excessive use in PVP, and they were deemed as 'too good'. Not that I agree, but it now gives chances for other weapon systems to be used, which is never a bad thing.

* Incursions nerfed..

Players were claiming that they ran them for the community and not the ISK. However, turnout rates dropped when ISK was nerfed. Also, as an ISK faucet (where ISK is injected directly into the economy), it was too high in the relative safety of hisec, and CCP needed to address the massive influx of ISK cuasing inflation in the EVE economy.

* Exploration? was this ever profitable in hs or did it get nerfed at some point?

Don't really do much exploration apart from when I'm bored, so no comment on this one.

* Racial BC/Destroyer skills introduced - longer for new players to cross train now

A bit annoying, but no biggie to me since I had Destroyers 5 and BC 5 trained up already, just needed to train the racial cruiser/frig skills. No idea why they did this, but easily adapted to.

* T3 - getting nerfed..

Haven't flown them yet so no comment.

* Passive resists skill useless for shields now?

Silly change, but there are arguments for and against such changes. Also, the passive resist skills are not useless, they merely will not affect inactive hardeners. However, they would not be that big of a concern for new players, since they take up a lot of training time for very little benefits, and the difference would not be that significant for a new player (by the time you're neuted out, most liley you would die to the lack of other skills rather than the difference in resists).

* skill training time boost nerfed - now uses neural remaps..

This makes no sense. Actually, this was a boost for most players (apart from the minority that trained all basic and advanced learning skills to 5 IIRC). This 'nerf' (boost) actually meant that new players did not have to spend 1-2 months training up learning skills just to train at the same speed as vets. Also, the neural remap thing was a result of CCP balancing out the starting races and bloodlines, since you used to get standard starting attributes which would stick with you for the rest of your eve life, so people would choose 1-2 races/bloodlines with optimum stats.

* researching datacores - nerfed with introduction of dc's into fw

No comment as never got started in R&D.

I'm sure I am leaving off many many more.. my point is most if not everything done in this game from a career path perspective for a new player pretty useless.. If the intent is to attract new players to the game why not introduce content that can be both profitable and fun? I'm sure the risk vs. reward argument is coming here but honestly how many brand new players come into the game and go straight to null/wh's? .. this isn't a troll post I would really like someone to explain these concepts so I can understand why profitable content is nerfed..


While I'm not going to say that your point is wrong, but I would like to point out that all the changes targeted at new players over the years (since I joined) have actually made the game easier for new players. It's easy to look at things from one point of view, especially as the whine threads take up most of the front page of GD, and ignore other perspectives. For content that is profitable and fun, FW changes and bounty changes have actually resulted in PVP being fairly profitable (it was alwaus fun to start with). For PVE stuff, most people, including a lot of CCP guys, probably see PVE more as a means to make ISK, rather than an ends in itself.

Not sure if the above address your questions, and some of my understanding may be wrong, but /shrugs

tl;dr People will whine about anything as it's always easier than adapting to changes.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#14 - 2013-02-05 03:52:07 UTC
lollerwaffle wrote:
I would like to point out that all the changes targeted at new players over the years (since I joined) have actually made the game easier for new players.


Hell yes. I started playing in 2005. The tutorial sucked. There were no corps for helping new players like say Eve U. The only ship worth flying was a raven, and everyone flew ravens. Rats were a lot tougher, and it took weeks to make your first million isk.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#15 - 2013-02-05 04:44:37 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
lollerwaffle wrote:
I would like to point out that all the changes targeted at new players over the years (since I joined) have actually made the game easier for new players.


Hell yes. I started playing in 2005. The tutorial sucked. There were no corps for helping new players like say Eve U. The only ship worth flying was a raven, and everyone flew ravens. Rats were a lot tougher, and it took weeks to make your first million isk.



Anyone else remember when the tutorial consisted of a link to a webpage with inaccurate information, and sliders for demonstrating tracking/sigrad/etc?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-02-05 05:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
You are overwhelmingly focusing on the negatives. Have you seen what a celestis can do recently? We've got so many improvements flowing down the pipe that I'm honestly thinking about quitting because it's shaking my worldview when CCP does something competent like create a new player experience that doesn't suck instead of say making pretty dresses for people to wear in space stations.

Edit: I mean I'm honestly grabbing a celestis and going to crap people up with it over my falcon because holy hell is it effective.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#17 - 2013-02-05 05:24:15 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
You are overwhelmingly focusing on the negatives. Have you seen what a celestis can do recently? We've got so many improvements flowing down the pipe that I'm honestly thinking about quitting because it's shaking my worldview when CCP does something competent like create a new player experience that doesn't suck instead of say making pretty dresses for people to wear in space stations.

Edit: I mean I'm honestly grabbing a celestis and going to crap people up with it over my falcon because holy hell is it effective.


The re-balancing of frigates and Cruisers is the enormously effective in helping new players play the game.

It takes under a week to be able to competently fit a T1 frigate. Under 3 to competently fit a T1 cruiser.
Prior to this, the baseline for PvP (aside, ofc, from tackle frigates) was the BC which takes longer to competently fit and, very important to the new player, is quite expensive.

This also happens to be the reason racializing BC and Destroyers is justified. Frigates and Cruisers (especially Cruisers) are really worth a damn for the first time in ages, so a little extra time spent in each race's frigates/cruisers is perfectly fine.

Also, me likey the new Cruisers. They're fantastic.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Archer Codename Duchess
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-02-05 06:20:06 UTC
I would like to see a general nerf to all Caldari vessels and possibly a double nerf to the tengu. I feel this would make the game a bit more balanced.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#19 - 2013-02-05 06:22:05 UTC
Archer Codename Duchess wrote:
I would like to see a general nerf to all Caldari vessels and possibly a double nerf to the tengu. I feel this would make the game a bit more balanced.

Cuz caldari is already so good at PVP.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#20 - 2013-02-05 06:28:56 UTC
CCP should nerf threads that have to do with nerfing.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
123Next page